#114191 - shaz - Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:25 am
Right, I am having this problem with my teacher in college, she is explaining to me that Mac Addresses cannot be changed on any network device.
I rememered, when you dump the Nintendo DS firmware, the Mac Address is stored on the firmware somewhere on line 32. Now, if I was to change this address and then upload the firmware back on to the Nintendo DS, will my mac address be changed? I mean like is there a chip on the DS logic board with the mac address...
My teacher says that the MAC address is burned in and CANNOT be altered or replaced no matter what. I have seen tutiorials where the MAC address is just stored on a eeprom chip and can be replaced but I would rather have feedback from real people and not from dodgy webpages...
Am I right or is my teacher right?
Thanks
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Last edited by shaz on Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total
#114192 - HyperHacker - Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:28 am
I've yet to see a device that couldn't have its MAC changed. However, I don't think anyone's released such a tool for the DS for fear of people using it to evade NWFC bans.
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#114194 - shaz - Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:43 am
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| I've yet to see a device that couldn't have its MAC changed. However, I don't think anyone's released such a tool for the DS for fear of people using it to evade NWFC bans. |
I don't think NWFC bans mac addresses but only bans copyed game dumps.
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#114196 - chishm - Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:11 am
Yes it's possible to change the MAC address of the DS. It's even easier to change the MAC address of a PC. Just search on the web for Windows change MAC address. I dunno, kids these days not able to use a search engine...
Your teacher is partially correct. In many cases, although you can change the reported MAC address in software, the physical address is still burned into a chip on the device and can't be changed. However, the DS is not one of those cases.
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#114197 - shaz - Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:19 am
| chishm wrote: |
Yes it's possible to change the MAC address of the DS. It's even easier to change the MAC address of a PC. Just search on the web for Windows change MAC address. I dunno, kids these days not able to use a search engine...
Your teacher is partially correct. In many cases, although you can change the reported MAC address in software, the physical address is still burned into a chip on the device and can't be changed. However, the DS is not one of those cases. |
My teacher mentioned that it is burned in but is it just burned into a eeprom chip? Im pretty sure you could program a eeprom chip and use the same dump format as the nic card so it is readable.
Oh and another thing, I do know how to use a search engine but it is better to get feedback from real people and feedback for my topic. There were alot of search results where they talk about spoofing your MAC address but that is not what I want.
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#114200 - Lynx - Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:02 am
But, why does it matter what the burned in MAC is anyway? It only matters what the software reports the MAC address to be, which is why you can change the reported WAN MAC on most personal class routers.
Also, of course every chip is burned with the MAC. If it was "hardcoded" into the chip, a manufacturer would have to have a die for every single chip they made if the MAC wasn't software writable.
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#114201 - tepples - Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:03 am
| chishm wrote: |
| It's even easier to change the MAC address of a PC. |
But can I go the other way, changing a PC into a MAC?
That, or Mac change windows address? I think the polysemy here interferes with people's query construction process.
| Lynx wrote: |
| It only matters what the software reports the MAC address to be, which is why you can change the reported WAN MAC on most personal class routers. |
Unless the wireless chipset has an ingress/egress "security" feature. Similar "security" features in various chipsets are part of why WMB works only with Ralink cards.
| Quote: |
| If it was "hardcoded" into the chip, a manufacturer would have to have a die for every single chip they made if the MAC wasn't software writable. |
Unless part of the wireless chip is fuse-antifuse PROM.
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#114205 - chishm - Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 am
| tepples wrote: |
| chishm wrote: | | It's even easier to change the MAC address of a PC. |
But can I go the other way, changing a PC into a MAC? |
I remember reading an article about people booting the Intel version of MacOS X on certain PCs, but the details escape me.
| tepples wrote: |
That, or Mac change windows address? I think the polysemy here interferes with people's query construction process. |
Then put quotes around "MAC address", since the most common usage of that particular phrase is related to the query. Knowing how to construct a search correctly and then refine it is directly related to people using a search engine competently. Besides, the first 10 results I got from my query were directly related to what I was searching for.
| tepples wrote: |
| Quote: | | If it was "hardcoded" into the chip, a manufacturer would have to have a die for every single chip they made if the MAC wasn't software writable. |
Unless part of the wireless chip is fuse-antifuse PROM. |
Hence why he said
| Lynx wrote: |
| Also, of course every chip is burned with the MAC. |
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#114208 - Devil_Spawn - Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:16 am
seeing as flashing your firmware does not change your mac address i do not think that it is stored in the firmware
#114210 - Sektor - Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:13 am
| Devil_Spawn wrote: |
| seeing as flashing your firmware does not change your mac address i do not think that it is stored in the firmware |
Your DS MAC address is stored in the firmware, Flashme just preserves that part when it installs.
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Last edited by Sektor on Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total
#114212 - Lynx - Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:45 am
AKA, software writable.
Not that I have done any research on the topic at all, but now that you bring up the ralink chipset, isn't the fact that it doesn't retard the data a software "feature"? Meaning, couldn't any software updatable chipset have new software written that would also make it WMB compatible? In theory of course, as you would probably have to remove the chip from the card to program (if possible at all) if it isn't onboard flashable.
As for security.. we know that doesn't exist.. :) the only question is, are the rewards worth the work.
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#114213 - Mighty Max - Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:56 am
http://www.bottledlight.com/ds/index.php/Main/Firmware
Firmware address 0x36
MAC addresses are changeable on every network adapter i've seen, and if i'm not mistaken some windows server versions, allow even multiple mac addresses for one physical network.
The attack to closed lan's via MAC "stealing" is called MAC spoofing
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#114270 - tepples - Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:17 am
| Lynx wrote: |
AKA, software writable. |
PROM is write-once. EEPROM is software re-writable.
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#114281 - chishm - Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:23 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Lynx wrote: |
AKA, software writable. |
PROM is write-once. EEPROM is software re-writable. |
That doesn't mean you can't burn out more bits. If it is normally 0xFF, then it's burnt to 0xAB for instance, you could reburn it to get 0x83. Then again, some PROM have a write fuse that gets burnt out after the first write, making it permanently read-only.
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#114284 - Lynx - Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:38 am
Yes, I understand it is write once.. I'm not sure what we are discussing. I only said it HAD to be software writeable otherwise every sing chip would require a unique die.
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#114296 - HyperHacker - Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:50 am
| chishm wrote: |
| That doesn't mean you can't burn out more bits. If it is normally 0xFF, then it's burnt to 0xAB for instance, you could reburn it to get 0x83. Then again, some PROM have a write fuse that gets burnt out after the first write, making it permanently read-only. |
True, but what are the odds the chip is connected in such a way that this can be done without any hardware hacking?
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#114302 - chishm - Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:15 pm
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| chishm wrote: | | That doesn't mean you can't burn out more bits. If it is normally 0xFF, then it's burnt to 0xAB for instance, you could reburn it to get 0x83. Then again, some PROM have a write fuse that gets burnt out after the first write, making it permanently read-only. |
True, but what are the odds the chip is connected in such a way that this can be done without any hardware hacking? |
Depends on whether a socketted chip is easy enough for you.
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#114368 - HyperHacker - Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:24 am
That's if it's socketed though, and I'd consider that hardware hacking.
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#114372 - chishm - Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:33 am
Even if it is hardware hacking, it still refutes the claim that there is no possible way to change the MAC address. Even if it isn't possible to reburn the chip, you could just replace it.
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#114443 - Lynx - Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:52 pm
Either way, it only matters what the network "sees" the MAC address as, and that is normally easily set using a web interface or config file.
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#114501 - phonymike - Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:07 pm
I've never noticed the ability to change the mac address on any of my network cards for a pc, but routers have had this option for at least 7 years. in the old days when I first had a cable modem, the cable company would record the mac address of your pc, which the cable guy would plug in and set up. therefore if you plugged another pc into the cable modem or a router that didn't have your mac address, they would block you from having the internet. so you change the router's mac address to the one your computer's net card has, and bewm it'd work fine again. ahh the good ol' days.
here's a pic from my current router, as you see it has it's own 'default' mac address, it can mimic you pc's address, or a custom one can be inputted. your teacher is dead wrong, good luck convincing them of that.
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
#114533 - Lynx - Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:08 pm
It's funny you should mention that.. As the cablemodem itself would hold onto a MAC address for up to 10 minutes after being unplugged. So, It didn't need to be recorded by the cable company, people just didn't know they needed to unplug the cablemodem for 10 minutes till the capacitors drained and it lost the MAC. It would then "learn" the MAC address of the next device connected and all would be well.
And, since we are taking a walk down memory lane, you could also "borrow" an external IP because by hooking the cablemodem up to your PC, and it gets the MAC address, then unplug it from the PC into a standard HUB (uplink of course) and you could then put another PC on that hub, hardcode an external IP and boyah! The cablemodem would route the other address as well.. :)
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#114826 - shaz - Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:15 pm
My teacher says that you can only change the logical mac address but not the physical... Is she right?
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#114855 - Lynx - Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:02 am
Did you read any of these posts?
The quick answer is NO, she is not correct, as the statement is so broad there is no way to know if a wifi chip somewhere in the world has the ability to have a different physical MAC address written to it.
Then again, the answer could be YES, as for the most part, I'd guess (again, I don't know all of the wifi chips being used) that most are write once devices that allow the manufacturer to write the MAC into the chip and your done.
Then again, you can say NO, as would removing the original chip and replacing it with another one count as changing the physical MAC of the device?
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![[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]](http://www.phonymike.com/images/mac_attack.png){kind=link}