#129234 - Alias1 - Sun May 20, 2007 10:18 pm
Hey Guys
Im the leader of a Mod Team (Who i will not mention, so this cant be misconstrued for ad-spam)
One thing ive been pondering doing for a while, is making some DS Games made for download-to-flashcart
If games were to be made, with support for all the popular flashcarts (Via DLDI and custom patches if needed), Professional quality graphics& Design, game balance love that could only come from somebody obsessed (heh) and Online play built in (We have a dedicated server already)
All priced at something like ?6($12), bought online and downloaded there and then
do you think the community of flashcart owners would actually go for it, or are most owners only interested in Free/homebrew/Open source projects rather than any kind of pay-for project?
(The reason for charging would be to give incentive to put a lot more effort and polish in, we arnt planning to live off of it)- We would donate 10% of the proceeds towards the people who made the tools we use (aka devkit) - we arnt leeches
And when we finish supporting a game (3 years or so, depending), we'll open up the source
Feedback is very much appreciated , Cheers
(Spoke to SimonB to ensure this post was in line with forum policy, Ty Simon ;) )
#129242 - Dood77 - Mon May 21, 2007 12:01 am
Well, I'm not totally against closed source projects, especially if they end up opening the source eventually.
I wouldn't mind paying 12$ for a game download, especially if it had nice online play with a dedicated server too. But of course this all depends on the game, I wouldn't buy it for charity, it would have to be a good game ;)
If a demo was provided it would help a lot too, and I like the idea of donating to the devkit/lib maintainers.
So overall I think its a great idea, but here's the question, what sort of game are you guys planning on making? I was thinking an FPS would be good, or maybe a fighting game similar to SSB. Maybe you should come up with a list, and make a poll so we can all decide.
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Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129244 - Tainek - Mon May 21, 2007 12:20 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
Well, I'm not totally against closed source projects, especially if they end up opening the source eventually.
I wouldn't mind paying 12$ for a game download, especially if it had nice online play with a dedicated server too. But of course this all depends on the game, I wouldn't buy it for charity, it would have to be a good game ;)
If a demo was provided it would help a lot too, and I like the idea of donating to the devkit/lib maintainers.
So overall I think its a great idea, but here's the question, what sort of game are you guys planning on making? I was thinking an FPS would be good, or maybe a fighting game similar to SSB. Maybe you should come up with a list, and make a poll so we can all decide. |
Well at the moment we have a Brawler in development, which borrows a lot of elements from a game called "Psychic Force 2" from the PS1 Era
i wont say anymore, but thank you for your input
(Part of the team, same household)
#129247 - zzo38computer - Mon May 21, 2007 1:28 am
I probably wouldn't want to pay for it. But it is OK, I'm not against it, it is especially OK if you post a free demo as well.
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#129259 - DragonMinded - Mon May 21, 2007 5:15 am
Keep in mind that the vast majority of people that have flash cards got them simply to pirate the expensive ($30+) games, and will likely pirate your games as well. Homebrew only is the minority outside this and a few other forums, so a business model set on trusting people to not pirate your game on the very device they bought specifically for piracy might not go over well.
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#129270 - Alias1 - Mon May 21, 2007 9:52 am
| DragonMinded wrote: |
| Keep in mind that the vast majority of people that have flash cards got them simply to pirate the expensive ($30+) games, and will likely pirate your games as well. Homebrew only is the minority outside this and a few other forums, so a business model set on trusting people to not pirate your game on the very device they bought specifically for piracy might not go over well. |
This is what i do fear
The main selling point would be the online play, which would use a CD-Key for verification (the CD key would be sent via email, seperate from the ROM)
i guess it would be foolish to assume that pirates would not pirate a commercial cheap pirate game, even if it costs penuts. even if its stealing from charity!
ty all for feedback
#129272 - souLLy - Mon May 21, 2007 10:25 am
I personally would pay ?6 for a game if it was good enough, there have been scene/commercial games released like this for the Dreamcast like Feet of Fury that have been well received. There's certainly a hardcore following that would support the release anyway.
The problem is the userbase of Flashcards does consist of mainly people who are well versed in the ways of piracy and the file itself will be by nature easy to share. I'm sure you've considered all of this anyway.
Perhaps the way to guarantee at least covering the costs for artists etc is to do a pre-order when you're close to completion, that way you can at least guarantee a certain amount of income before the warez kiddies get hold of it.
Has anyone been able to source slot-1 write once flashcards at all? People tend to hold more value to something that they can hold in their hands and physically own.
#129275 - chishm - Mon May 21, 2007 11:43 am
You can slow down piracy of the game by encrypting it with a hash of the user's DS's MAC address. Of course, someone will eventually hack it, but at least you can slow down the spread.
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#129279 - Alias1 - Mon May 21, 2007 1:26 pm
| souLLy wrote: |
Has anyone been able to source slot-1 write once flashcards at all? People tend to hold more value to something that they can hold in their hands and physically own. |
this i would love to have, a card with a set of ROM (Write once), and a built in passme. if this could be done for ?1.50 or less i'd be all over it
#129290 - KeithE - Mon May 21, 2007 4:46 pm
Not write once, and not ?1.50, but rewriteable and $15.00 - http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?t=13172
#129291 - Darkflame - Mon May 21, 2007 4:50 pm
I am fully willing to pay for any game ver download, as long as there is a demo of some sort first (and I have read positive reviews).
This also goes for music, tv, film.
I want to buy everything ver download, basicaly, and I want my money to go to the creators with as little middle men between as possible.
I hold no value for physical mediums whatsoever, when I buy something I buy the content...or, more specificaly, the legal and moral right to use it.
I know I am in the minority, but think its the way forward.
Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data?
That said.
I think your best option is having a "donate" style button right next to the download. Make it easy for people that enjoy it to give you money.
People will always pirate, so your appealing to those that are moral and value your work, however you distribute it.
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#129293 - knight0fdragon - Mon May 21, 2007 5:26 pm
perhaps a better model would be to setup an account via online, to wave off some piracy, but of course this then defeats the purpose of mobility, another option could be custom binaries
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#129301 - Lynx - Mon May 21, 2007 6:35 pm
| Quote: |
| this i would love to have, a card with a set of ROM (Write once), and a built in passme. if this could be done for ?1.50 or less i'd be all over it |
You and every other dever, I would guess.
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#129306 - GoopyMonkey - Mon May 21, 2007 7:40 pm
| Darkflame wrote: |
| Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet?
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#129314 - tepples - Mon May 21, 2007 8:58 pm
| GoopyMonkey wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: | | Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet? |
Because some Internet users are "more equal" than others. Particularly in rural areas, each two-hour session might only allow the transfer of 24 MB of data. Some of us don't even have the Internet all the time, such as while riding in a moving car, bus, train, or airplane.
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#129316 - Tainek - Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| GoopyMonkey wrote: | | Darkflame wrote: | | Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet? |
Because some Internet users are "more equal" than others. Particularly in rural areas, each two-hour session might only allow the transfer of 24 MB of data. Some of us don't even have the Internet all the time, such as while riding in a moving car, bus, train, or airplane. |
qft
but i agree in principle, content would be better with choice
TBH im suprised somebody else hasnt jumped on it, like you said, almost every NDS dev would jump at it, i'm sure it cant be hard to make.
could make the cart require a custom patch for code, and at least try to make it as unfreindly to backups (to prevent piracy) as possible
i muse, i muse
#129325 - pas - Mon May 21, 2007 10:20 pm
hehe... Alias, do a GTA and I will pay ^^
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#129330 - tepples - Mon May 21, 2007 10:31 pm
| pas wrote: |
| hehe... Alias, do a GTA and I will pay ^^ |
But can one import Payback?
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#129334 - Dood77 - Mon May 21, 2007 10:41 pm
| GoopyMonkey wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: | | Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet? |
Simple, user-friendliness.
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129336 - Alias1 - Mon May 21, 2007 11:01 pm
| pas wrote: |
| hehe... Alias, do a GTA and I will pay ^^ |
heh, a GTA clone on the DS, one can dream...
Well one thing we all agree on is that the DS needs some decent Co-Op games (not keen on children of mana)
Well the thread has told me what i need to know, once the current project is a little closer prehaps i'll release some information (Depends entierly on the Mods, but i'll worry about that then)
(And on a side note, if anybody knows where i can find decent documentation on the Nopass method, it would be very much appreciated, i might spend some time ringing around some manufacturer's i know, find some quotes about getting aformentioned carts made)
#129340 - Lynx - Mon May 21, 2007 11:24 pm
| Quote: |
| (And on a side note, if anybody knows where i can find decent documentation on the Nopass method, it would be very much appreciated, i might spend some time ringing around some manufacturer's i know, find some quotes about getting aformentioned carts made) |
Currently, that seems to be a heavily guarded secret still. All the information required to do it is out there, just no "Here you go, just put this in your flash chip and your set." file to build a homebrew slot-1 device.[/quote]
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#129344 - Alias1 - Mon May 21, 2007 11:58 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Quote: | | (And on a side note, if anybody knows where i can find decent documentation on the Nopass method, it would be very much appreciated, i might spend some time ringing around some manufacturer's i know, find some quotes about getting aformentioned carts made) |
Currently, that seems to be a heavily guarded secret still. All the information required to do it is out there, just no "Here you go, just put this in your flash chip and your set." file to build a homebrew slot-1 device. |
*sigh* , they never make it easy
is the any kind of repository of currently known knowlege, even if there is no easy how-to?
#129346 - tepples - Tue May 22, 2007 12:31 am
There is GBATEK.
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#129348 - Alias1 - Tue May 22, 2007 12:47 am
| tepples wrote: |
| There is GBATEK. |
heh, i read that sometimes when i get bored, one of my favorite sites ^^
But i mean more knowledge about the NDS nopass/encryption , all i can find is NO$GBA info ( I understand the creator broke the Encryption)
#129351 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Tue May 22, 2007 2:23 am
I think freely available demos would be a necessity for this idea to get off the ground. Not only is someone more willing to part with their money if they can play the game first (assuming the game is good, that is), but you also generate more general interest that way, too.
I think basically, you'd want to follow the same model as the old shareware PC games from Apogee and the like.
Personally, though, I hope the cheap slot-1 card thing works out eventually. I don't know how I feel about these ones KeithE has gotten ahold of. I definitely don't like that they require a NeoFlah NEO2 in order to write them and they sort of sound expensive for the size anyway. It has to be possible to get even larger capacity cards for cheaper than $15 each the way memory prices are these days.
...word is bondage...
#129356 - Morrob - Tue May 22, 2007 3:12 am
Lets say you were able to make a game like the newly announced Geometry Wars for the DS and it had online. I would gladly pay 12 bux for that if the quality was there. Sadly, I think I will be in the minority.
I do like your idea and your future plans. Good luck and please don't be a stranger ;)
#129368 - argus - Tue May 22, 2007 4:17 am
My suggestion: make the game free, but make the user pay for a key to play it online. The rom will get pirated anyway, so this way you're just charging for that part that can't be pirated: the access key.
I'd pay for a game like this, as long as it's around $8-12. Of course, if I'm paying for an online game, I have to feel confident that the server isn't going to shut down in a week. You'll have to prove that you're serious about this.
#129440 - Darkflame - Tue May 22, 2007 9:39 pm
| GoopyMonkey wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: | | Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet? |
Thats what I just said :p
(music, film, games ect).
In the long run, all data should be done ver the internet, regardless of what data it is.
We buy the right to use, not the object holding the date.
I feel the need to have physical objects is just society's inertia and it will vanish probably within the generation.
| Quote: |
| heh, a GTA clone on the DS, one can dream... |
Payback runs on the GBA;
www.apex-designs.net
;)
| Quote: |
I think freely available demos would be a necessity for this idea to get off the ground. Not only is someone more willing to part with their money if they can play the game first (assuming the game is good, that is), but you also generate more general interest that way, too.
|
Absolutely.
Demos are needed for me to hand voer ?$?$
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#129453 - Alias1 - Tue May 22, 2007 11:11 pm
| Darkflame wrote: |
| GoopyMonkey wrote: | | Darkflame wrote: | | Why should we, as a species,waste resources making physical objects to store and transport what is really nothing but data? |
Why should we make CDs or DVDs, when we have the internet? |
Thats what I just said :p
(music, film, games ect).
In the long run, all data should be done ver the internet, regardless of what data it is.
We buy the right to use, not the object holding the date.
I feel the need to have physical objects is just society's inertia and it will vanish probably within the generation.
| Quote: | | heh, a GTA clone on the DS, one can dream... |
Payback runs on the GBA;
www.apex-designs.net
;)
| Quote: | I think freely available demos would be a necessity for this idea to get off the ground. Not only is someone more willing to part with their money if they can play the game first (assuming the game is good, that is), but you also generate more general interest that way, too.
|
Absolutely.
Demos are needed for me to hand voer ?$?$ |
Oh i'm sure we could make a GTA clone on the DS, and make it look nice to boot (Most likely have it all lightly cell shaded)
At the moment we have just a single 2D artist, and a single 3D artist, after two members having to leave the team due to starting a family
I refuse to touch a game i cannot perfect
until i can get more artists we just dont have the creative capacity
and a Demo is pretty much 100%, i dont expect people to pay for somthing they cannot try first ;)
#129468 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Wed May 23, 2007 1:49 am
| argus wrote: |
| I'd pay for a game like this, as long as it's around $8-12. Of course, if I'm paying for an online game, I have to feel confident that the server isn't going to shut down in a week. You'll have to prove that you're serious about this. |
More than the server shutting down, I'd be worried that there'd never be anyone on the server to play against. I mean we're talking a niche within a niche within a niche here. Are enough people going to buy these games to populate the servers?
On the other hand, flash cards for the DS seem to be selling very well. A lot of people I know have bought one recently (who can pass on an R4 for $30?) so the market may be larger than I'm thinking.
...word is bondage...
#129545 - Alias1 - Wed May 23, 2007 5:57 pm
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| argus wrote: | | I'd pay for a game like this, as long as it's around $8-12. Of course, if I'm paying for an online game, I have to feel confident that the server isn't going to shut down in a week. You'll have to prove that you're serious about this. |
More than the server shutting down, I'd be worried that there'd never be anyone on the server to play against. I mean we're talking a niche within a niche within a niche here. Are enough people going to buy these games to populate the servers?
On the other hand, flash cards for the DS seem to be selling very well. A lot of people I know have bought one recently (who can pass on an R4 for $30?) so the market may be larger than I'm thinking.
...word is bondage... |
Well the Game will come with two Roms, a game rom, and a server client
You and all the other players will be in the various rooms (which will have an IRC type chat client), you can see what games other players have (we wont stop at one after all ;) ) , and can challange players to a 1v1 of your game choice
there is also a play now option, with tickboxes (allowing you to choose what you want to play) , when you select this, you will be randomly pitted against anouther player with a common play now game
Upon choosing a game to boot by either method, the Server will save the details to a config file, and boot the game up (which upon seeing the config file, will read it and you know the rest ;) )
But now i've said too much ;)
As for a Niche in a Niche in a Niche, i'd hardly call handheld gamers a niche (more DS's worldwide than 360's, PS3's and Wii's combines, in fact about twice as many as all combined)
I'd say its a niche in a niche (Flashcart owners, and ones who arnt dirty pirates :P)
Future games should help keep old games alive, all of the games are designed with a metagame and logetivity in mind
#129596 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Thu May 24, 2007 2:16 am
| Alias1 wrote: |
| I'd say its a niche in a niche (Flashcart owners, and ones who arnt dirty pirates :P) |
I was thinking that the people who pay for these games would be a niche withing the larger group of people who play homebrew.
...word is bondage...
#129615 - melw - Thu May 24, 2007 9:43 am
My suggestion: Make the game freely downloadable and sell a version that ships on a slot-1 card, with professional covers, booklet, perhaps some extras etc. with a price that covers the manufacturing process and shipping fees. As mentioned in this thread lot of times, flash card adapter owners in general are easily pirating games, and an indie game isn't any different to a big / commercial game project when it comes to that. On the other hand, CD keys and any kind of copy protection methods will piss of regular users (like me :).
Call me old-fashioned, but I still tend to buy CD's/DVD's/LP's if there's quality behind it. And I believe there's other people out there who also want to spend money on something tangible. I have also something like 20 games for DS standing in the bookshelf - wouldn't mind if that collection included some good quality indie games as well. Not to mention that by offering physical copy of a game to purchase, you'd have much more wider target audience. Over 40 million people have DS these days, but only few go for a flash adapter.
#129637 - Lynx - Thu May 24, 2007 2:23 pm
And requiring a key or other copy protection just creates a goal for someone to crack. Lots of software is pirated even with a key/copy protection. If you did go that route, I'd say use the MAC style just to see how long it takes for somone to bypass it.
As for providing media, it would open your market up to everyone with a DS. I agree, making it available for free to flash cart owners might be enough to keep the servers full so that paying customers aren't pissed because they bought a game with noone to play with.
So, if you plan on taking it serious, you'll need to make the investment and provide it on media. But, expect to spend at least $2,500 on the initial cards, programmer, cases, labels, booklet, etc for 100 cards. Maybe more. And because it would be a startup, you have to expect to spend more on the initial 100 then what it cost to keep it going. So, you might only be able to make $5 profit from the first 100, but then more profit for the rest. Of course, the larger quantities you purchase, the more profit you can make, but the more risk you take.
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#129662 - Darkflame - Thu May 24, 2007 8:23 pm
And that initial investment/risk is precisely what puts of india games.
This is why in the long run, downloading all media makes sense.
Even playing field for everyone. (well, obviously, theres people with advertising budgets and such, so its not completely even, but word of mouth still counts for a lot, imho).
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#129668 - Alias1 - Thu May 24, 2007 9:24 pm
| melw wrote: |
| My suggestion: Make the game freely downloadable and sell a version that ships on a slot-1 card, with professional covers, booklet, perhaps some extras etc. with a price that covers the manufacturing process and shipping fees. As mentioned in this thread lot of times, flash card adapter owners in general are easily pirating games, and an indie game isn't any different to a big / commercial game project when it comes to that. On the other hand, CD keys and any kind of copy protection methods will piss of regular users (like me :). |
I'm Happy to get some Slot 1 Carts into production, and have a $20,000 budget
However if i cant find any info on Nopass, it'll never happen :P
A CD-Key wont hurt regular users, you'll put it in once from an email, and never need touch it again, but pirates wont be able to get online
when the game is nearer competion, i'll have a look at a slot 1 card, but i still have no info on the NoPass
#129673 - tepples - Thu May 24, 2007 10:46 pm
In theory, everything you need to make a SLOT-1 card is disclosed in Martin Korth's "GBATEK" document.
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#129674 - Tikker - Thu May 24, 2007 10:53 pm
Maybe a neat game to develop would be more like a limited MMO style game on the DS
I know that I'd be more than willing to pay for something cool like that
#129680 - Dood77 - Thu May 24, 2007 11:24 pm
Instead of a full blown MMO, just kind of a cross between Nethack and Gauntlet. (meaning more depth than Gauntlet, but more action-oriented then Nethack)
Then after thats finished add 8 player wifi ;)
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129685 - Alias1 - Fri May 25, 2007 12:51 am
ah excellent, Evidently i've been using an older version of the document
*Gets Coffee, Prepares to spend the night reading*
#129690 - 9th_Sage - Fri May 25, 2007 3:32 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
Instead of a full blown MMO, just kind of a cross between Nethack and Gauntlet. (meaning more depth than Gauntlet, but more action-oriented then Nethack)
Then after thats finished add 8 player wifi ;) |
That description sounds totally rad to me. Oh yes, and if it was a game I was interested in, I would definitely think about buying a homebrew game on a slot-1 DS gamecard.
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#129692 - tepples - Fri May 25, 2007 3:35 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| Instead of a full blown MMO, just kind of a cross between Nethack and Gauntlet. (meaning more depth than Gauntlet, but more action-oriented then Nethack) |
You mean something like Zelda?
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#129693 - Dood77 - Fri May 25, 2007 5:14 am
Haha tepples. You're right, I didn't really think of it... But more depth than zelda too. And more tailored for multiplayer, not so much focus on one hero and one princess ya know? (although four swords was an absolute blast!)
By the way, I'd pay 50$ for such a game, done well of course.
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129710 - Lynx - Fri May 25, 2007 1:55 pm
| Alias1 wrote: |
| I'm Happy to get some Slot 1 Carts into production, and have a $20,000 budget |
Then you could do it now. Buy the hardware and start burning slot-1 cards now. With that kind of budget, I'm sure you could get the cards even cheaper than anyone here would be able to, as you could buy 1,000 instead of just 100.
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#129713 - Tikker - Fri May 25, 2007 3:06 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
Instead of a full blown MMO, just kind of a cross between Nethack and Gauntlet. (meaning more depth than Gauntlet, but more action-oriented then Nethack)
Then after thats finished add 8 player wifi ;) |
that's pretty much exactly what I was meant by a limited MMO
even something like animal crossing, except let me burn down the other guys town ;)
#129774 - 9th_Sage - Sat May 26, 2007 3:23 pm
| Dood77 wrote: |
By the way, I'd pay 50$ for such a game, done well of course. |
4 Swords-ish online gameplay? I'd buy that in a heart beat.
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#129781 - Darkflame - Sat May 26, 2007 10:28 pm
Absofrellinglutely.
4 Swords online is kinda like my "perfect dream game" :p
Of course, thats a lot easier said then done.
4 Swords in terms of play mechcanics is half way between zelda and bomberman, but the landscapes have to be big and designed well enough to work with varying numbers of players.
Zelda has a lot too it, the items effecting both players and landscapes in various ways. Trying to outdo it in depth of play would be quite hard indeed.
Then to get it all to run without too much lag...
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#129840 - MrD - Mon May 28, 2007 1:44 am
| Quote: |
| I feel the need to have physical objects is just society's inertia and it will vanish probably within the generation. |
I guess nobody'd want more Blast Arena then... ._.
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#129897 - Alias1 - Mon May 28, 2007 10:05 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| Alias1 wrote: | | I'm Happy to get some Slot 1 Carts into production, and have a $20,000 budget |
Then you could do it now. Buy the hardware and start burning slot-1 cards now. With that kind of budget, I'm sure you could get the cards even cheaper than anyone here would be able to, as you could buy 1,000 instead of just 100. |
well first i have to decipher the documentation and design a working template for my manu , unfortunatly, coding & design are my forte, anything hardware based is not ;)
@Dood
I'd love to do a MMO, but it would be a lot of work to make it handheld compatible
i'm already looking at some of the "Turn Based" MMO's that you can find now, aka you get X Moves a day, they seem very suited to a MMO for a handheld
#129923 - Dood77 - Tue May 29, 2007 2:58 am
Meh, I knew it was a pipe dream anyways. Now I would give an arm and a leg for a quality Magic Carpet clone with wifi. (If I had the time to learn programming right now...)
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#129941 - OSW - Tue May 29, 2007 10:29 am
I think it'd be pretty hard to make much profit aiming for the homebrew community, If indeed profit is your goal (pretty likely).
#129978 - FireSlash - Tue May 29, 2007 7:02 pm
You don't need to make a program closed source to make a few bucks off it.
Lets take Amplituds for example.
The developer could release the source, a few levels, etc no problem.
People who really enjoy the game could "buy" it, for maybe $5 or something, and in turn they get bonus content (more levels and worlds).
Both sides win. The program is still free, still open source, and people who really enjoy it can shell out a few bucks for some more action. People who don't enjoy it didn't loose anything for checking it out.
Will people "pirate" it? Yes. Would people who were going to pirate it have payed for it if they couldn't? Probably not. Does a profit really matter? I don't think so. It's nice to make a few bucks for your work, but I personally don't dev for money, I dev for fun.
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#129979 - Alias1 - Tue May 29, 2007 7:26 pm
| OSW wrote: |
| I think it'd be pretty hard to make much profit aiming for the homebrew community, If indeed profit is your goal (pretty likely). |
Profit isnt the driving factor, if it was i would be chasing publishers, no its more the maintinance of the online servers, and just more incentive to put a lot more polish in, although i may release the online brawler for free period, its a lot less work than we invisioned, and the server Useage is negligable for online play
#130112 - Darkflame - Thu May 31, 2007 1:01 am
I think its a bit like online video.
On the surface it seems unlikely that people will pay for video online when they can download it, go on tv-links, or acquirer it in some other illega way.
However, theres lots of people that ARE saleing videos on line and making a lot of money from it. If the price is right,and its convenient people will pay happily.
Currently I'm keeping my eye on;
http://sanctuaryforall.com
Which is a online sci-fi staring Amada Tapping made by some of the team that did Stargate.
They offer the first 4 episodes free on sites like Veoh, with the eppisodes being roughly ?1 after that. (downloads in better quality too)
All there videos are completely DRM free. They have made a specific point about this.
Now, the market for games online is obviously less, let alone homebrew DS games.
But I think the same principle applys.
Give people a sample, let them pay in a convenient fashion for more, and dont bother at all with any DRM or protection.
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#130151 - Alias1 - Thu May 31, 2007 10:17 am
Funny you should mention Online video
Look at Youtube, you dont pay for content, so how do they make money?
Ads
I've been toying with the idea of putting Ads into the game
It would go down like this:
You play the game singleplayer, no Ads, nothing.
You go to play online- Ads are downloaded from the server, and shown as a loading screen while you connect to the server, prehaps shown for 3 seconds.
You use the multiplayer client, and find a player to play against
again, a different Ad is shown for 3 seconds
and when you finish your match, a Third Ad is shown for 3 seconds as you load the Multiplayer client again
You'd have loading times anyway, so its not going to interfere
Been playing with it, and could release the game for free and cover costs, but i wouldnt be prepared to release the source- Some gremlin would remove the Ads to prove a personal point, and ofc, nobody would bother trying to advertise
#130217 - Darkflame - Thu May 31, 2007 10:51 pm
Adverts during loading times is a nice principle, but you would be hard pushed to find sponsers.
A handfull of users isnt worth squat in advertising, 5000 or so users Id think is the bare minimum.
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#130222 - Alias1 - Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:25 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
Adverts during loading times is a nice principle, but you would be hard pushed to find sponsers.
A handfull of users isnt worth squat in advertising, 5000 or so users Id think is the bare minimum. |
and your bang on why its an idea and not in there already
If i get Carts made, then it may be an option
#130226 - six-five-two - Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:56 am
Make Super Smash Brothers DS.
I suggest making it donation instead of having to pay, you know that someone out there will pirate your game.
#130247 - Darkflame - Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Theres also a physcological effect, imo.
Just asking for donations might make people release how much work goes into it.
Putting DRM in it or another method to force payment might make people just look for ways around it.
hmz..not making myself too clear.
Basicaly, I think when you have to work to crack a game or something, somehow that overides the moral impulse that your stealing something.
If your just taking the game...for nothing...then in peoples heads they are more likely too appriciate that (if they enjoy the game) they owe you something.
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#130406 - Dood77 - Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:55 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
Theres also a physcological effect, imo.
Just asking for donations might make people release how much work goes into it.
Putting DRM in it or another method to force payment might make people just look for ways around it.
hmz..not making myself too clear.
Basicaly, I think when you have to work to crack a game or something, somehow that overides the moral impulse that your stealing something.
If your just taking the game...for nothing...then in peoples heads they are more likely too appriciate that (if they enjoy the game) they owe you something. |
Thats a good example of something that looks good on paper, but in the real world its not so simple.
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If I use a term wrong or something then feel free to correct, I?m not much of a programmer.
Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#133905 - Dracker - Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:13 pm
I like this idea.
I'd definitely be willing to pay for some sweet online games. Free offline would be cool as well, but plan on it being certain, like it or not, as the ROM's going to be all over pirate communities.
Nothing wrong with a MAC-address hash based CD key. If you want something more elaborate:
1) Create a database of valid keys
2) They can be algorithmic, it doesn't matter if someone hacks up a keygen, because you...
3) Only activate a key once you've made a sale. Don't activate them in order of your generating algorithm though. Also make it so possible keys from the generating algorithm >>> keys that actually get activated, so a keygenner will never stumble upon an activated key.
4) When someone tries to go online, verify that their key is valid and activated. Also, check if someone else with that key is online. If so, deny access.
Essentially this scheme is used by Unreal Tournament 2004 and Steam. I don't think either has been hacked.
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#133978 - spinal_cord - Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:08 am
Seems like we want to re-create the old-skool shareware thing. I think it might work well. Have your game/app generate a number based on the mac address, use this to creat a key, have the use need that key to play the game/app on their DS only. onlyt problem I can see is that people can revers enginier your game to hack the key.
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#133996 - Dood77 - Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:08 am
I think I read somewhere on the forums someone mentioning that it was possible to change the MAC address using simple means, something just like writing to a firmware setting.
Can anyone knowledgeable comment...?
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC
#133997 - HyperHacker - Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:13 am
I don't know of any tools to do so, but yes, the MAC address is stored in the firmware and can easily be modified.
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#134017 - tepples - Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:27 am
Is the MAC stored in the SL1-protected part of the firmware or in the user settings area?
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#134027 - Lynx - Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:01 am
Wouldn't changing your MAC mess up your commercial game cart online accounts? Or does Nintendo not even use the MAC to create your player code (or whatever it's called)?
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#134032 - olimar - Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:18 am
Last edited by olimar on Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
#134178 - spinal_cord - Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:57 am
If the MAC is protected [instantly thinks of over-hunting apple computers in the wild], doe flashme leave it alone? if so, I dont think many people are likely to change it, even to save themeslves $5-$10.
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#134183 - caitsith2 - Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:34 am
| Dracker wrote: |
Nothing wrong with a MAC-address hash based CD key. If you want something more elaborate:
1) Create a database of valid keys
2) They can be algorithmic, it doesn't matter if someone hacks up a keygen, because you...
3) Only activate a key once you've made a sale. Don't activate them in order of your generating algorithm though. Also make it so possible keys from the generating algorithm >>> keys that actually get activated, so a keygenner will never stumble upon an activated key.
4) When someone tries to go online, verify that their key is valid and activated. Also, check if someone else with that key is online. If so, deny access.
Essentially this scheme is used by Unreal Tournament 2004 and Steam. I don't think either has been hacked. |
Another example of a game that does allow keygenned keys to work online, is any of the battle.net games by blizzard. The key generation routine is something more complex that only blizzard has, (and is used as verification on the battle.net servers.) Now, the key verification that is done client side is far simpler. This results in a keygen being made, but the keygen will almost NEVER stumble upon a valid online battle.net key by chance.
Another good example, in fact, is Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage. For a good while, at some point after a keygen had been made for XP/2003 VLK keys, about a year later. (The keygen I am referring to is one that generates one key after another instantly, not the one that takes 10 minutes or more.) What more or less happens, is that the product key stores the 3-7 product ID, a 32 bit number, and a signature that validates the key with the product. Now, XP/2003/any other microsoft product will take any key in certain product ID ranges, regardless of what that 32 bit number is. However, microsoft, and only microsoft, has the algorithm that correctly generates the 32 bit number for the 3-7 product ID, and without the correct 32bit number, the key does NOT pass genuine advantage, even though it will allow windows xp to be correctly installed otherwise.
So, make 2 algorithms. The first one just validates the key client side, and is easily reverse engineered client side. The second algorithm made, is used server side for issuing the keys itself. That algorithm is much stricter than the client side algorithm. On the other hand, any key generated as valid for server side algorithm will also pass 100% of the time on the client side algorithm.
An example would be client side. Add each odd digit to a total. Multiply every even digit by 2, and add to total. Sum of all digits will be divisible by 10.
Server side could be follow client side, except that the total of everything but the last digit will be evenly divisible by 13. Since the client side will not validate this, there is no way to know that the key is not valid till the client tries to connect to the server with it. (Server side validates the mod 13 without the last digit, then validates mod 10 including last digit.)
Example.
8904235907796 will pass both client side of mod 10, and server of mod 13. The next key in sequence, 8904235907895 will not pass server side, but will still pass client side.