#129287 - Lynx - Mon May 21, 2007 4:14 pm
Man.. the DS homebrew community is vicious.. So quick to grab the pitchforks and start a witch hunt without even knowing ANY truth.
Starts to make me wonder why there are any devs at all. Like walking on glass.. one small slip and you'll be cut to the bone.
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#129288 - simonjhall - Mon May 21, 2007 4:22 pm
Haha, I know what you mean! Have you had a bad experience of this recently or something?
I suppose the average DS gamer can just download a copy of a (high-quality commerical) game for free or they can download a homebrew game for free. As homebrew normally has zero budget it often shows and I suppose people pick up on that...
Either way it's a free game to them, but often commerical > homebrew and that's why people complain. Y'know?
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#129289 - kusma - Mon May 21, 2007 4:34 pm
Lynx: Oh shut it, you've never been involved in the demoscene... ;)
#129294 - Optihut - Mon May 21, 2007 6:07 pm
Link please...
#129299 - Lick - Mon May 21, 2007 6:32 pm
Is this referring to the Beup case?
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#129300 - Lynx - Mon May 21, 2007 6:33 pm
| kusma wrote: |
| Lynx: Oh shut it, you've never been involved in the demoscene... ;) |
But, that's all in good fun, isn't it? It would be different if one dever was releasing a game/app attacking another dever.. That'd be fine.. but this.. Doesn't make ANY sense to me.
EDIT: Lick, Among other things.
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#129307 - DragonMinded - Mon May 21, 2007 8:08 pm
Heh. The issue goes both ways on this. I see people in my IRC room daily that pop in through DSO IRC and say things like "this is an awesome app, thanks for making it DM!" On the other hand, though, I get a TON of angry emails because I changed or haven't put in a feature, or won't take a suggestion. See a recent locked post on scdev for a classic example of what happens when you don't want to change something. I also get a lot of anger when I don't "fix" boot issues on cards such as MMD, but have yet to recieve a donated card to work on.
You do have a valid point though. A good percentage of the people out there are very rude about things.
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#129311 - FifthE1ement - Mon May 21, 2007 8:18 pm
Well the main reason I created Moddz News was that I wanted DS homebrew developers to have a place to express and display their hard work and accomplishments. I think I have done a good job, as all new homebrew news and information is posted daily without any of the political BS that follows. If any devs need any web space, emails, blogs, etc, you know where to come.
Sincerely,
FifthE1ement
http://www.Moddz.com
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#129317 - DragonMinded - Mon May 21, 2007 10:00 pm
FifthE1ement, that's great and all, but I've noticed that you've taken any opportunity on this forum to advertise your site... It seems that this post is only marginally relevant at all.
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#129323 - pas - Mon May 21, 2007 10:18 pm
Sounds true to me... People (including me) got thankless because things got too easy ?
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#129328 - dantheman - Mon May 21, 2007 10:24 pm
@DM - yeah, I saw that post on SCdev, and I found it rather sad that those people were actually responding in such a rude way. I mean, if it was something that actually mattered, I could understand somewhat, but the way the memory function of the calculator works? Come on.
Then again, in another post, upon learning that Chishm was not going to release the rom dumper he created for use in developing Nitro Hax, another user stated "I was about to ask whether it was even possible but I guess it is and some people just prefer keeping secrets to helping others."
Granted, that post was quickly shot down by a few other members, but it was still an eye-opener. I fully support Chishm's decision, but it's a shame others apparently can't.
Like simon said, it's most likely a matter of people comparing commercial to homebrew without appreciating the difficulty in getting foreign code to function at all on the device. For instance, I played that "futuristic racer" demo that was recently posted here quite extensively. Was it Mario Kart DS? Of course not. But for a homebrew project, a user's first programming experience to boot, it's pretty darn good.
#129337 - simonjhall - Mon May 21, 2007 11:06 pm
However maybe we just hear the bad side - speaking from personal experience, people are more likely to contact me if they have a problem with some of my stuff than they are to mail me to say thanks.
However when you do get a nice mail (or donation!) it just makes it all the more worthwhile, don't you think? Plus when you factor in the amount of downloads versus the amount of complaints it looks pretty damn cool :-D
I guess you've also gotta consider that it's exactly the same for commerical games too - we've all bought a game (or watched a film) and quickly branded it as crap without considering the many people who put all their time into it for months and stayed late to do "just one more thing".
Again, when you do get a thanks it just reminds you that not everyone is an asshole. :-)
EDIT: does anyone actually like being called a 'dev'? I *really* hate it.
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#129341 - Lynx - Mon May 21, 2007 11:36 pm
There's a big difference between these two e-mail examples:
Example 1:
Hey Joe, I can't get your supershot.nds file to run on my SuperCard Rumble Lite.. It starts, I get the intro, and then it seems to hang. What could be wrong?
Also, when I played it on my friends DS, it worked fine with his R4DS, but I didn't like the buttons. You should switch them around so they are more like other commercial games that are simular so that we are already used to the button layout.
Example 2:
Joe, your stupid @ss game won't work on my SuperCard Rumble Lite. Everyone elses games work fine, so your dumb @ss must have f$#!@ed it up. I played it on my buddies R4DS and your button layout sucks @ss! I've played better games written by 5 year olds.. How stupid do you have to be to swap the A and B buttons anyway?
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#129342 - simonjhall - Mon May 21, 2007 11:43 pm
Good point. You should send them the code and say "here you go, you fix it". "Oh what's that, you don't know how to program a DS?"
EDIT: typos :-D
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#129352 - Sweater Fish Deluxe - Tue May 22, 2007 2:32 am
If you're not developing for your own enjoyment, homebrewing will definitely never be worth it.
The viciously negative feedback isn't even all that bad, in my opinion. You have to able to roll with that stuff. Usually that sort of stuff is so extreme that I can't even see how anyone could take it seriously.
A bigger problem, I think, is the total lack of feedback of any kind that most games get. I say games because this is definitely more common with games than emulators or most apps, which do seem to get a good amount of attention by comparison. Most homebrew games that are released get virtually no attention of feedback at all. Almost no way for the developer to even know anyone's playing it. And that's not only for small one-off type games, but even for most of the larger more in depth projects.
Like I said, unless you're doing it for your own enjoyment, it's not worth it. And that's got nothing to do with the DS, specifically, every homebrew scene I've ever followed has been the same in that respect.
...word is bondage...
#129355 - mastertop101 - Tue May 22, 2007 3:08 am
Hmm.. if you found me offensive I'm sorry... I was kinda playing with you ;)
I wasn't so serious ;). Although I still beleive I'm 'right'.
As for the subject, I don't think the community is thankless, there are just some... bad people...
#129360 - tepples - Tue May 22, 2007 3:43 am
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| A bigger problem, I think, is the total lack of feedback of any kind that most games get. I say games because this is definitely more common with games than emulators or most apps, which do seem to get a good amount of attention by comparison. Most homebrew games that are released get virtually no attention of feedback at all. Almost no way for the developer to even know anyone's playing it. |
So should more developers make their programs phone ho^W^W submit high scores online using dswifi?
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#129365 - argus - Tue May 22, 2007 4:06 am
| Sweater Fish Deluxe wrote: |
| If you're not developing for your own enjoyment, homebrewing will definitely never be worth it. |
I think all creative hobbies are that way. Sharing your creation with others is nice, but it shouldn't be your primary motivation (unless it's a career).
#129371 - Lynx - Tue May 22, 2007 4:48 am
| mastertop101 wrote: |
Hmm.. if you found me offensive I'm sorry... I was kinda playing with you ;)
I wasn't so serious ;). Although I still beleive I'm 'right'. |
It's not even that, it's the whole picture. This isn't the first time the community has turned on a dever at the drop of a hat.
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#129384 - NDSZone - Tue May 22, 2007 7:43 am
we need to remember that the people on the web are from all classes and cultures. Have you ever seen a lower class mother(not all of them) who can't even talk nicely to their child. They in turn don't know how to talk nicely to others, they were brought up that way, and the cycle continues. I often have to take a step back an ask why such a stupid comment, or why are people jumping to conclusions LOL....we live in a crazy world and there are always those who will spoil it for the rest.
I have such a high respect for developers.....I look up to them. I can't code and am amazed at there productions. I do not expect commercial games/apps from homebrew... yes often I have been pleasantly surprised with the games/apps. There are so many good games and app homebrew that I wouldn't even mention them all it would take too long.
There are alot of people who stand in awe at the developers but don't say anything. I am also very impressed at how young some of the developers are, it amazes me.
Without the homebrew developers...I would cry....It is so exciting to see the latest release or update....even when it is just in pre-alpha etc.
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www.nds-zone.com
#129518 - OOPMan - Wed May 23, 2007 11:57 am
| Lynx wrote: |
Example 2:
Joe, your stupid @ss game won't work on my SuperCard Rumble Lite. Everyone elses games work fine, so your dumb @ss must have f$#!@ed it up. I played it on my buddies R4DS and your button layout sucks @ss! I've played better games written by 5 year olds.. How stupid do you have to be to swap the A and B buttons anyway? |
Hmmmmmmm, in this instance I would just mark emails from the above source as spam and let me email system do the rest.
Ignore the idiots out there. They go away one way or the other.
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#129594 - 9th_Sage - Thu May 24, 2007 1:51 am
Let me start by saying I'm not a dev for NDS, or anything for that matter (haven't programmed in awhile), but I personally appreciate everything the folks here and the other homebrew people do. Without you, a lot of this stuff about the DS wouldn't have been figured out yet, and a lot of the awesome apps and games I play with every day wouldn't have come into being.
I think the problem is that some people refuse to understand the amount of work that goes in to making things like this, as well as the fact that you folks are hobbyists. You do this for free, you shouldn't be expected to ask 'How High?' when some some random person on some random forum doesn't like some little aspect of your game or app. It's not like they paid $40 for your creation and should expect 24/7 phone technical support either. :P
I hope that more people like me who appreciate the homebrew scene speak up and give you guys the credit you deserve, maybe we can turn back the tide of lame angry people.
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#129597 - shen3 - Thu May 24, 2007 2:21 am
Here is my 2 cents:
About a year and a half ago I moved from gba development to painting.
There were many reasons, some of which were:
* Lack of feedback about games I released
* Difficulty in sharing my work with family and friends
* Rude behaviour in forums and irc channels
* What I perceived as an imbalance in contests towards emulators and ports vs original games
* Turnaround time for paintings is much faster than games
* I wanted to do something that didn't involve a computer
I think Dragonminded is lucky, it seems that his works are things that fill a place in the DS software world that isn't served by commerical software.
Going up against commercial DS games, and ports of commercial PC games, or emulators running commercial games from old systems is hard work.
That said GBA and DS development can still be a challenging and rewarding hobby. You just need to make sure that what you want to get out of it is realistic.
Shen
#129606 - DragonMinded - Thu May 24, 2007 5:35 am
| shen3 wrote: |
| * What I perceived as an imbalance in contests towards emulators and ports vs original games |
You are right on the money with this one, even on the DS.
| shen3 wrote: |
| I think Dragonminded is lucky, it seems that his works are things that fill a place in the DS software world that isn't served by commerical software. |
It goes both ways (again). In one sense, having no official competition is nice because I am the benchmark for a lot of what my program offers. The other hand is, many people bought a DS with the idea that much of my program should have come standard with a DS. So what ends up happening is they take what I do for granted.
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Seriously guys, how hard is it to simply TRY something yourself?
#129616 - melw - Thu May 24, 2007 9:58 am
If you're doing homebrew development just to get (positive) feedback, maybe it's better to change to something else. While I agree it's unnecessary to be rude or negative on something that's people are doing for free and on their free-time it doesn't change the fact that some people like to complain. At least on these forums the community is rather responsive and helpful in most of the cases - ask something stupid and you'll get a stupid answer, but think about it for a moment and there's someone with a right answer. In the end at least I'm doing hobby programming primarily for my own enjoyment and it's just a nice bonus if someone else happens to like what I do.
#129617 - blasty - Thu May 24, 2007 10:09 am
| Quote: |
| If you're doing homebrew development just to get (positive) feedback, maybe it's better to change to something else. While I agree it's unnecessary to be rude or negative on something that's people are doing for free and on their free-time it doesn't change the fact that some people like to complain. |
Exactly.
If one cannot handle constructive or non-constructive (rude, offensive) feedback for their work, maybe one should consider not spreading their stuff to the public at all.
#129618 - kusma - Thu May 24, 2007 10:50 am
Matti said it.
#129623 - jester - Thu May 24, 2007 11:57 am
Well i think if you enjoy coding in this community than continue doing so!
Because at the end of the day its your decision to leave or not however, if somone likes you game/app then i feels thats enough reason to continue till it is perfected!
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#129722 - TheYak - Fri May 25, 2007 4:59 pm
There seem to be a good amount of posts by coders stating that they don't get feedback or that there's a lack of appreciation for the difficulty.
I, for one, don't always take the time to thank a developer (but have donated a bit here and there), but I also have assumed that they're all getting flooded with Thank you! and/or Screw you! e-mails.
As for appreciation of the difficulty, I think there's little you can do about that. The majority of people into the homebrew scene want quick & easy solutions, and don't even understand things like hardware limitations (just search for questions related to PSX, DC, and N64 emulation on DS). I download anything and everything homebrew (including tech demos and alphas) regardless of my initial interest because more often than not, even if I don't like a game or app, it's at least impressive that someone put in the time to code something for a very specific and limited bit of hardware and shared it with the world.
So, despite it being meager by comparison, I offer my thanks to all Devs, coders, 1337 DS Haxors or whatever you prefer to go by.