#163440 - 0xtob - Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:01 pm
As you probably all saw, Nintendo is going to release a new DS model, the DSi, with some fancy new features such as
- Two cameras
- SD card slot
- Internal storage
I think this is pretty exciting! The cameras will open up some great possibilities for innovative homebrew games and applications (Think augmented reality!) And once the device got the reverse engineering treatment, the SD card slot might be the future of running homebrew without having to buy card adapters and without the hassle of DLDI!
On the other hand I think it's a bummer they removed the GBA slot. There are some nice accessories for it (official and homebrew) that we won't be able to use with the DSi. By the way, this makes me wonder:
There's no official statement on the guts yet, but since there is going to be a downloadable web browser for it and the GBA slot that was used for Opera's memory expansion is removed, I believe we might be blessed with additional RAM. And considering that developers will want to incorporate the cameras into games, a few MHz more could probably help with the image processing, couldn't they?
What do you think of the DSi and the possibilities it might give us homebrewers?
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#163441 - tepples - Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:14 pm
| 0xtob wrote: |
Nintendo is going to release a new DS model, the DSi, with some fancy new features such as
- Two cameras
- SD card slot
- Internal storage
|
If DSi is anything like Wii, add another "feature" to the list:
- Verification of RSA digital signatures on new DS releases, along with a whitelist for the first few thousand Nintendo DS Game Cards, which were released without an RSA signature
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#163448 - gauauu - Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:22 pm
| tepples wrote: |
- Verification of RSA digital signatures on new DS releases, along with a whitelist for the first few thousand Nintendo DS Game Cards, which were released without an RSA signature
|
So (and I ask out of ignorance of how these things work, not as argument), would the homebrew scene just need to figure out how to masquerade as one of the whitelisted games, and then business continues as usual?
#163449 - elwing - Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:35 pm
would probably be one of the easier way to do it... damn it would be so great that nintendo find a way to render ROM execution hard, but full support to homebrew writer... (I dunno something like severly limiting the ROM size but allowing the use of file system...)
#163451 - Dwedit - Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:31 pm
So, does it completely vaildate a game before it plays it, or would it accept a hacked game that looks similar enough to an existing game?
Or better yet, a flash cartridge that contained a complete whitelisted NDS game, which could spontaneously bankswitch after it had booted.
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#163452 - 0xtob - Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:43 pm
No matter how an implementation of original game validation might work, every method has its potential weak spots, and Nintendo have proven to bump into those more than once.
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#163470 - tepples - Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:36 pm
| gauauu wrote: |
| So (and I ask out of ignorance of how these things work, not as argument), would the homebrew scene just need to figure out how to masquerade as one of the whitelisted games |
Not unless we can match the SHA-1 of the ARM9 and ARM7 to those on the whitelist. That'd be as hard as forging a DS Download Play signature. Nearly four years after the DS came out, the DS Download Play verification still hasn't been broken to the point where I can serve homebrew to an unmodded DS Lite in a Walmart* store. Nintendo could just require all DS games released after the DSi to be signed in the same manner as DS Download Play, and all previous games' signatures to be contained inside the firmware.
| Dwedit wrote: |
| So, does it completely vaildate a game before it plays it |
My proposal would involve complete ARM9 and ARM7 hashes, just like with DS Download Play.
| Dwedit wrote: |
| Or better yet, a flash cartridge that contained a complete whitelisted NDS game, which could spontaneously bankswitch after it had booted. |
I know of two ways to do this: A. include an infringing copy of an authentic game's complete ARM9 and ARM7, or B. build a device shaped like a PassMe2 to hold an authentic Game Card. But the authentic game's ARM9 and ARM7 would already be executing by that time.
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#163473 - nanou - Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:15 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Nearly four years after the DS came out, the DS Download Play verification still hasn't been broken to the point where I can serve homebrew to an unmodded DS Lite in a Walmart* store. |
So, for those of us who only play outside of Walmart, it's not an issue then. Awesome. ;)
| Quote: |
| My proposal would involve complete ARM9 and ARM7 hashes, just like with DS Download Play. |
I haven't read the details of your proposal, but isn't that a bit heavy? Binaries can only be so big, I admit, but it seems like it might introduce a noticeable delay if you ask the DS to validate a large binary. I could be wrong, but something about it just doesn't seem like it would fly. I guess we'll find out sometime next month or, failing that, next year.
Something I can't get out of my mind is that most of the old rumors about the new DS have turned out to be true. Slimmer, larger screens, no slot-2, SD storage, etc. Another of those rumors was enhanced protection that would affect (i.e. provide enhanced protection for) only new games and leave homebrew unaffected. My bet is that will turn out to be true as well, and if not then something quite like it--the end result being that the DSi will run homebrew well before its end-of-life.
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#163474 - tepples - Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:19 pm
| nanou wrote: |
| I haven't read the details of your proposal, but isn't that a bit heavy? Binaries can only be so big, I admit, but it seems like it might introduce a noticeable delay if you ask the DS to validate a large binary. |
No bigger than the existing delay in verifying a DS Download Play binary. The DSi might have a bigger CPU, or it might have crypto hardware like the Starlet IOP on the Wii has.
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#163478 - nanou - Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:30 am
| tepples wrote: |
| nanou wrote: | | I haven't read the details of your proposal, but isn't that a bit heavy? Binaries can only be so big, I admit, but it seems like it might introduce a noticeable delay if you ask the DS to validate a large binary. |
No bigger than the existing delay in verifying a DS Download Play binary. |
Download Play takes an annoyingly long time in my experience. I'm sure it's not significantly increased by validation, but it might turn out to be significant in contrast to the existing load time for carts.
Then again, I can't doubt too much that they might do it in hardware. It's clear that the DSi has better processing power in some regard and there's only a little indication of the nature or extent of that.
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#163479 - chishm - Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:58 am
| tepples wrote: |
| gauauu wrote: | | So (and I ask out of ignorance of how these things work, not as argument), would the homebrew scene just need to figure out how to masquerade as one of the whitelisted games |
Not unless we can match the SHA-1 of the ARM9 and ARM7 to those on the whitelist. That'd be as hard as forging a DS Download Play signature. |
What about the ARM9 overlay? Would the whitelist mechanism also have to load every potentially used piece of code from the DS Card and verify it?
The DSi looks like a nice new toy. I just hope there's no more need to reboot after leaving the main firmware screen.
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#163481 - nanou - Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:04 am
| chishm wrote: |
| What about the ARM9 overlay? |
I'd considered that irrelevant at first, unless developers somehow found incentives to do everything through overlays (to avoid load times?) but then if overlays are used at all with with SD card storage it turns out that, without doing that kind of validation, we have unchecked access to rewrite some code. That could be mostly fixed by having QA require overlays in the protected region.
This doesn't work for older games of course. If the whitelist checks in advance, then the overlay code could be swapped after the check by a clever passme. And--never mind whether it can even be done at all--I don't see how it can check in situ without monstrous expense, and it would probably still break some games anyway.
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#163484 - DaQat - Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:54 am
| tepples wrote: |
If DSi is anything like Wii, add another "feature" to the list:
- Verification of RSA digital signatures on new DS releases, along with a whitelist for the first few thousand Nintendo DS Game Cards, which were released without an RSA signature
|
Normally I would expect Nintendo to do this but this time I don't think this method is likely. Mostly because this would cut off current hardware owners from buying new games. Being that Nintendo is far more interested in selling games then hardware it would be a bad move. Now do expect this in the next hand held the sell that is advertised as the next generation, and not just an upgrade to an existing system.
#163492 - Lynx - Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:33 pm
| Quote: |
| the DS Download Play verification still hasn't been broken to the point where I can serve homebrew to an unmodded |
Keep in mind that there hasn't been a drive to crack it. With FlashMe removing it, and slot-1 cards to load FlashMe being $20, there is really no point.
Something tells me if RSA cracking becomes the only method, there will be a little bit more interest in actually trying to crack it. But, if nobody tries, it won't happen.
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#163499 - tepples - Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:03 pm
| DaQat wrote: |
| Normally I would expect Nintendo to do this but this time I don't think this method is likely. Mostly because this would cut off current hardware owners from buying new games. |
Old DS hardware doesn't care about a whitelist or RSA. Besides, Nintendo has cut off new titles from existing hardware before: "THIS GAME WORKS ONLY WITH GAME BOY COLOR".
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#163520 - DaQat - Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:19 am
| Quote: |
| Old DS hardware doesn't care about a whitelist or RSA. Besides, Nintendo has cut off new titles from existing hardware before: "THIS GAME WORKS ONLY WITH GAME BOY COLOR". |
Well yes and no. The GBC was a different situation, most of the GBC games also worked on the standard GB. Only a few that used the GBC's extra features(CPU ,IR) weren't backwards compatible. While with the DSi using RSA on all the new games would stop all the old hardware from working. Also if teh tried to release new games for the standard DS's after the DSi's release it would then require "forward white listing" meaning you would have to download additions to your current whitelist to get them to work. Which to say the least would be a huge a security hole in the system. Basically the logistics don't work out.
I think a more likely system will be this.The standard Slot 1 cards will work mostly the same. However with the new firmware which is update able they will have the ability to blacklist known flash carts, and the ability to blacklist new ones with system updates. The SD card, and internal nand will almost defiantly be RSA protected. Though it will only take so much time before someone figures out how to boot homebrew directly from the sd or nand.
#163521 - MechaBouncer - Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:42 am
And as soon as they do, Nintendo will try to patch that hole like they've done with the Wii. They may even release DS games that detect whether you have a DSi or not and force you to update the firmware. Wouldn't that be nice? >=P
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#163523 - nanou - Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:33 am
| MechaBouncer wrote: |
| They may even release DS games that detect whether you have a DSi or not and force you to update the firmware. Wouldn't that be nice? >=P |
Heh, that's one of the minor reasons I don't own a PSP: impromptu firmware upgrades. But it's probably the easiest and most effective ways to combat piracy, and hurt homebrew in the process.
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#163528 - zzo38computer - Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:42 am
| MechaBouncer wrote: |
| ..... They may even release DS games that detect whether you have a DSi or not and force you to update the firmware. Wouldn't that be nice? >=P |
Maybe you can install a custom firmware with a hypervisor in there, so that everything that isn't the firmware runs by hypervisor. Do you think this is possible? Maybe if you add a extra chip inside (which would be pretty hard, but probably not completely impossible), then it would be possible to do this, otherwise probably you can't do that.
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#163531 - chishm - Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:09 am
| DaQat wrote: |
| While with the DSi using RSA on all the new games would stop all the old hardware from working. |
No it wouldn't. It would just be an extra piece of data stuffed somewhere within the DS Card's memory that the DSi can read and check. The DS would just ignore it, as though it never existed.
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#163543 - DaQat - Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:05 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| DaQat wrote: | | While with the DSi using RSA on all the new games would stop all the old hardware from working. |
No it wouldn't. It would just be an extra piece of data stuffed somewhere within the DS Card's memory that the DSi can read and check. The DS would just ignore it, as though it never existed. |
Oh hmmmm I thought it would affect the normal ds's, sorry about that.
#163576 - Maxxie - Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:51 pm
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| Maybe you can install a custom firmware with a hypervisor in there, so that everything that isn't the firmware runs by hypervisor. |
I would call that highly possible.
ARM calls that technology TrustZone
Replacing the arm9 with a TZ enabled core would also allow legacy (GBA) games to be played from the sd card even after the special gba hardware parts were removed.
The question here is: Does it cost more (developer time, licence fee) then Big N thinks taht it will save them?
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#163578 - zzo38computer - Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:16 pm
| Maxxie wrote: |
| zzo38computer wrote: | | Maybe you can install a custom firmware with a hypervisor in there, so that everything that isn't the firmware runs by hypervisor. |
I would call that highly possible.
ARM calls that technology TrustZone
Replacing the arm9 with a TZ enabled core would also allow legacy (GBA) games to be played from the sd card even after the special gba hardware parts were removed.
The question here is: Does it cost more (developer time, licence fee) then Big N thinks taht it will save them? |
Whatever Nintendo thinks, they are most likely wrong. I think that if hardware hackers can add a TZ and a GBA slot, and two firmwares (one for officially licensed DSi software and one for anything that isn't officially licensed DSi software (such as homebrew, GBA, DS, etc)), then old GBA cartridges will still work, without having to copy them first (of course if it is homebrew, that doesn't matter because they are already on the SD card). And if you can make the GBA slot accept legacy GameBoy games also, then a emulator can be added, to detect that and run it. Do you know some people have separated the DS parts and told you to build it yourself? If you can do the same with DSi and then you can add additional parts (such as TZ and GBA).
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#163579 - tepples - Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:30 pm
So that means someone's probably going to have to write a proof-of-concept GBA-on-DS emulator, even if it is slow and runs only multiboot executables, so that we can be ready once the DSi gets cracked. I wish I knew how to write an efficient emulator. Or do we expect DSi to be fast enough for a port of gpSP (GBA emulator for GP2X)?
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#163581 - Darkflame - Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:35 pm
I highly dought its faster then the current DS models in any way whatsoever.
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#163583 - 0xtob - Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:50 pm
Nintendo aren't exactly known for building the fastest consoles, and they didn't mention anything about performance at the announcement of the DSi. Nevertheless, as I mentioned earlier, the image processing for the camera might need some extra juice. And ever wondered where all these hours of battery life went?
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#163585 - silent_code - Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:59 pm
| 0xtob wrote: |
| Nintendo aren't exactly known for building the fastest consoles |
With the exception of the Wii (which I think, is still a very good machine and platform), Nintendo's consoles were always (am I wrong?) pretty damn fast! Just think about the N64 and the NGC compared to their Sony counterparts.
If you meant handhelds, then I do agree.
A question: (Note: Do not answer the following question.) Does anybody know anything about the NDSi I can't find on the net? (I didn't look too hard, because I'm enjonying my days off. :^D ) They removed slot 2. Well, that's a pitty, but did they remove the silicon part of the GBA-compatibility aswell? Because, I thought most of those parts are vital for the NDS. Like the ARM7 (etc.) ;^)
Then, what would have had to be removed to require an emulator? Parts of the firmware, that's for sure, but I'm talking about the hardware?
The fact is, we will see what has changed on the inside, once we get our hands on the thing. It's interesting to know, that the US still has to wait half a year (2009-04) for the console...
And calling it a console, isn't it just another model with some features added and some removed? It's an extended platform, but it's the same "old" NDS we all (or most of us) like so much. :^)
Yes, I guess the guys making the GHoT guitar grip might feel a little ... stabbed in the back (maybe?), but then, we can expect they will have a successor to the game in the making or even out by the time the NDSi comes to the shelves in all key markets. So, it's not a big knife (-> "stabbed in the back") for slot2 extensions. Although, I do think that move sucks big time.
What extension pak support I am personally concerned about and couldn't find any reliable information about, is the rumble pak. Is it build-in now? Is it not?
Honestly: Given that the release in Japan is on 2008-11-01, so the hardware should be pretty much final and in production, but I haven't read anything about rumble support, makes me a little nervous.
Any reliable info on that? As you see, I like rumble. :^)
Don't try to think too hard, guys, you'll only ruin the surprise for yoursleves. ;^)
Yes, I do hate surprises in general, but not this time. Not this time.
Best regards and have a nice sunday! :^)
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#163588 - bean_xp - Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:46 pm
I don't know about the rumble features or indeed the system specs of the DSi, but considering that it has a web-browser built in, are we safe to assume it either has the memory expansion pack built in (and the hardware remains mostly unchanged) or the DSi has more base memory than the standard DS/DSL? Since we know that new DSi specific games wont work on the standard DSes does this mean we can expect a significant hardware update? (for some reason I believe that DS shop applications will use the DSi hardware, whereas cartridges will be in DS format) Also, even though homebrew such as DS organise, moonshell and lmp play mp3 files reasonably well, considering the platform, can we expect that the DSi's media player will outperform them? and would that suggest that we can expect faster hardware (or perhaps a dedicated mp3 decoder of some sorts).
I'm definately not an expert in hardware, but I thought I'd share my thoughts. If the DSi has these hardware updates then perhaps it could be considered a DS2, I guess only time will tell.
#163590 - nanou - Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:12 am
In the (growing) spirit of making specific predictions, I think we'll certainly see more RAM, but where it will be put is not something I'm ready to bet on. In terms of processing power I think the arm7 and arm9 will remain exactly the same, but with additional specialized processors--Nintendo hasn't boasted about additional power except in terms of specific applications.
The change in battery life suggests it has the same batter power, but with either a higher load for the same ends, or with the expectation that new, more costly uses will be common enough to significantly impact the expected battery life. I expect we're looking at a compromise of the two, since there is almost certainly more hardware in need of powering, or at least in need of more power (eg. WiFi), but the factors seem a little large to me, which I take to indicate a shift in application toward more power-hungry uses.
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#163591 - db73 - Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:13 am
I'm glad it's coming out in Japan next month (Novemeber). Gives people time to get their hands on it & see what it's all about. I wait with baited breath (as most of us are no doubt) to see if we can still use our flash cards & run homebrew.
Not to fussed about the loss of Slot 2. I've never used it anyway. Still it seems a shame that it's going when you consider what it's been used for so far & the potential it has demonstrated.
#163597 - zzo38computer - Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:00 am
| tepples wrote: |
| So that means someone's probably going to have to write a proof-of-concept GBA-on-DS emulator, even if it is slow and runs only multiboot executables, so that we can be ready once the DSi gets cracked. I wish I knew how to write an efficient emulator. Or do we expect DSi to be fast enough for a port of gpSP (GBA emulator for GP2X)? |
I thought if someone can install a hypervisor chip, then you don't need a emulator, because the DS hardware is similar enough to the GBA hardware anyways, that it doesn't need to be emulated? (or maybe I missed something about how a hypervisor is supposed to work?)
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#163599 - elwing - Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:33 am
it looks damn good, but I am really afraid that it might be a nightmare to have homebrew running on it... anyway I won't get it.... already ordered my pandora :D
#163614 - MechaBouncer - Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:49 pm
I get the feeling that the ARM946E-S will stay the same (although a ARM926EJ-S or ARM1026EJ-S would be nice to run native Java code if they are compatible with current DS code). Most TrustZone capable chips don't seem to offer the same DSP features of the ARM9 and other ARMv5TE(J) chips (see HERE), so I find it unlikely that they would replace the main CPU. The additional draw could be because of the larger screens, faster WiFi (it could still be 802.11b, but not locked to 2Mbps all the time), the onboard flash memory and SD slot (think of how much flashcarts drain the batteries), and potentially any additional RAM for web browsing (unless it uses the onboard flash memory, but that could be problematic as you download stuff).
As for the removal/replacement of the ARM7TDMI, that could go either way. Doesn't the official SDK for the DS only allow access to the ARM7 through APIs? So, in theory, they could replace it with anything that supports the same functionality for said APIs. However, considering that they will most likely be releasing GBA games through the DSi store, it would make things much simpler just to keep the hardware there than trying to emulate it. Plus then they don't have to source any other chips than what's already being used in the DS Lite already. That is, unless the ARM9 can duplicate all functions of it. I don't know how well that would work given the minimal difference in speed between the chips and how optimized GBA code is for the ARM7 (that and the difference between being 3-stages and 5-stages, cache and memory differences, etc.). Although they both execute Thumb instructions, so I suppose it's possible. I guess that's where the proof-of-concept GBA emulator on DS comes in, right? It'd certainly be interesting to see if it's possible.
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#163621 - silent_code - Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:52 pm
Guys (and gals) I really don't think this is anything close to an NDS2!
Unless I have mixed up everything, all games that were shown on the NDSi and announced are for the NDSphat/lite/i (DSeye? ;^D ), except downloadable DSware.
If you take a look at N's demonstaration videos, you'll see it yourself: it's just extended (and removed) functionality - it's still an "NDS1".
Or didn't you see the link in the OP says "Nintendo DS software lineup" for 2008 / 2009 and then everything is showed off on a NDSi? Hello?
To me it's crystal clear: Better WiFi, slightly bigger screens (which might need a little more power?), no slot2, additional software, new firmware.
And if I am not totally mistaken, the browser is not "build in", but freely downloadable, along with other applications, like the "Moving Notepad."
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n10/conference2008fall/presen/e/04.html
| Quote: |
| As the very first software title to be offered through "DSi Shop," Nintendo will start distributing "DSi Browser" free of charge simultaneously with the launch of DSi. |
And finally:
| Quote: |
| The "Nintendo DSi" is the third model of the Nintendo DS platform, following Nintendo DS and Nintendo DS Lite, ... |
Or simply watch it over here:
http://www.irwebcasting.com/081002/34/36e60ea959/main/d4c5000436_hi.htm
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#163623 - bean_xp - Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:25 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| Guys (and gals) I really don't think this is anything close to an NDS2! |
In terms of the public it's obviously not a DS2, however in terms of homebrew it is possible that there are some changes to the hardware which means it could be considered as a separate platform to work on. The hardware shown already reveals that this is a much more significant update than the DS lite was to the DS phat (in terms of hardware only). However this is all speculation on my part, it could well be the case that the underlying hardware is almost identical.
As with regards to the web browser, even if it is distributed over the DSi shop, it's still going to need the additional memory, which suggests that the memory will be built in (which I guess is good news for homebrew developers?)
On a completely unrelated note, does anybody know if the resolution of the screens has changed at all to match the new size? (obviously backwards compatibility is still needed)
#163624 - silent_code - Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:43 pm
Again: it's the same old 256x192 pixel LCDs that the two previous models had. Only they are 3.25" big now, instead of 3.0".
About the browser: It was said, that the DSiBlowser (pun intended) had been significantly modified and adjusted to the NDSi... whatever that means. Maybe they simply reduced the memory amount needed for operation and a portion of the internal flash memory is used for caching?
But yes, I do hope they have included additional memory, even if it is just "external memory" (or auxiliary memory... whatever you call it, it's secondary RAM) like the Wii and NGC have.
Higher WiFi rates (>2Mb) are only possible for "DSi specific" software, which probably menas DSiWare. Retail games will still be limited like with the NDS and NDSlite.
The only (probable) difference affecting homebrew I can think of right now, is new means of authorisation and encryption. And that doesn't make it a whole new platform. ;^)
I bet the bus layout is different. With slot2 removed, its bus might have been mapped to the cameras / external memory / flash memory / SD card slot... who knows? But all games, new and old (Hint, hint!), should work with the NDSi. So obviously, it's unlikely that there have been made any significant changes. They didn't even include texture filtering. (Because it's just anotehr NDS model. - Yeah, i said it again!) ;^)
I am pretty excited to see, if they open up DSiWare to a certain extend, so that maybe "ports" (to a new API) of programs like colors! could be distributed (commercially, like its iPhone version) to a broad audience?
I'd like that. :^)
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#163626 - bean_xp - Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:14 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
I am pretty excited to see, if they open up DSiWare to a certain extend, so that maybe "ports" (to a new API) of programs like colors! could be distributed (commercially, like its iPhone version) to a broad audience?
I'd like that. :^) |
I wondered if this was what the "i" in "DSi" was supposed to mean ;)
#163627 - Filb - Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Maybe "eye"?
#163628 - nanou - Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:27 pm
@silent_code
Despite the conjecture about changes, I think we're all fairly clear on the fact that the DSi is still a first iteration DS variant, and not a new 'gen'. But there are some significant changes, and they're certainly more significant than the changes between phat and lite. At a minimum, we have two cameras and SD storage built in. People will quickly get to work on taking those into account. Almost certainly we'll have another few things to add support for as well--all of which enhance the capabilities of the model over those of the previous one (excepting the absent slot-2.)
I'm rather hoping the enhanced sound they've promised is well backed. Apparently there is an AAC decoder and better speakers. If the decoder is in hardware, then it can almost certainly be told to deal with MP3s or what-have-you, and one assumes that it will be generally possible to deliver better quality audio.
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#163629 - MechaBouncer - Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:43 pm
That's what I'm thinking. Just how "Lite" was a play on words because of the "lighter" dimensions and brighter screens. I think the "i" pronounced "eye" is to represent the camera (or perhaps the bigger screens so your "eyes" can see more), while it could also make reference to the better "Internet-access" or how Nintendo is playing on people "individualizing" them to their own personal tastes with different apps through the online store. You could also think of it as in reference to yourself using "I". They are pushing for everyone to have their own DS instead of sharing between different family members. It may even relate to the Wii's little "i" icons how they're meant to represent little people coming together, but in this case the focus is on the individual. And to draw it out even further, if/when the DS2 really does come out, they could just call it the DSii (although pronouncing that would probably be DS2 as if they were Roman numerals). It wouldn't surprise me one bit.
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#163630 - tepples - Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:28 am
| zzo38computer wrote: |
| I thought if someone can install a hypervisor chip, then you don't need a emulator, because the DS hardware is similar enough to the GBA hardware anyways, that it doesn't need to be emulated? (or maybe I missed something about how a hypervisor is supposed to work?) |
VRAM banks work differently, but that can be worked around if there's an actual MMU. A much bigger difference involves sound. And unless the new system has at least 36 MB of RAM, some games will send the hypervisor into the kind of thrashing that users of PocketNES for GBA Movie Player saw with some MMC3 games.
The difference in pipelines shouldn't be much of a problem. Commercial GBA games don't need cycle accuracy, as borne out by the fact that most of them run just fine without an authentic BIOS.
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#163631 - 0xtob - Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:04 am
Does anyone know what is necessary to become a DSWare developer? The application requirements for Nintendo-Licensed game developers do not yet include DSWare. But even for WiiWare the requirements seem to be the same as for developing full-blown games (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Most of us probably do not do game development for a living and don't have the 2,000$ spare bucks for devkits (let alone "secure office facilities"), yet many of the homebrew projects from this community are good enough that people would buy them on DSWare.
I think Nintendo could learn a lesson from its competitors and open up DSWare (and WiiWare) to more developers. By releasing the DSi, Nintendo just unofficially declared the iPhone a competitor. Then why not learn from the very successful App Store? Why not have a developer program similar to XNA? You don't need to have a company, you don't need to buy devkits, you just pay a rather affordable yearly fee, code your games, get them reviewed and offer them to any Xbox 360 owner in the world.
By doing this, Nintendo would also indirectly prevent DSi piracy, because the homebrewers have what they want and are not interested in cracking the DSi's security.
I really hope to see this happen, but somehow I don't believe it will.
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#163633 - nanou - Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:11 am
| 0xtob wrote: |
By doing this, Nintendo would also indirectly prevent DSi piracy, because the homebrewers have what they want and are not interested in cracking the DSi's security.
I really hope to see this happen, but somehow I don't believe it will. |
I don't relish the idea of paying a yearly fee for the privilege of releasing what would normally be free software. However, if it gives me a form of licensing then it might well be worth it--it would look much better in the portfolio. Being given the option to sell stuff at the same time would also be very nice, so in a broad sense it is probably actually a rather good idea.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I could worry that it wouldn't work smoothly enough to maintain the momentum that the homebrew scene is accustomed to, but I'd like to see it attempted at least. An interesting point is that Nintendo doesn't have to change anything about the console at all to accommodate it, so even if they're not planning it, who's to say they can't be convinced to do so? It would be a long-shot of course, but maybe they could be convinced by the fact that it would mean homebrewers would have an outlet without becoming the piracy threat that we are when we have to force our way into the system.
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#163635 - tepples - Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:32 am
| 0xtob wrote: |
| Why not have a developer program similar to XNA? You don't need to have a company, you don't need to buy devkits |
The XNA devkit now starts at $794 in the United States: $299 for Xbox 360 (pro) and $495 for a 5-year XNA Creators Club subscription, plus however much it costs to buy a Windows PC or upgrade your existing Windows PC to run XNA Game Studio. I said five years because that's the typical life of a game console platform. It's possible to buy a shorter subscription, but then your work will fall unmaintained once the subscription runs out. (Case in point: An expiring subscription killed MoonShell.)
| Quote: |
| you just pay a rather affordable yearly fee, code your games |
I believe in the model-view-controller pattern, which I've implemented in Lockjaw Tetromino Game. The "model", or underlying game logic, shouldn't change from one platform to the next; the "view" can encapsulate differences between platforms. But the existence of popular platforms that run only one programming language, such as XNA (C# only) and J2ME (Java only), complicates things. Is there a single language in which I can write game logic that will compile to C#, to Java, and to C?
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#163636 - elwing - Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:53 am
I wonder what they'll do with their webcam, I doubt they can really use motion detection in a game, or a pretty bad one and on a simple game... seen the computational power of a DS...
#163643 - gauauu - Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:37 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| But the existence of popular platforms that run only one programming language, such as XNA (C# only) and J2ME (Java only), complicates things. Is there a single language in which I can write game logic that will compile to C#, to Java, and to C? |
<not-entirely-serious>Well, when you get to the level of core game logic, and remove a lot of the UI-type code, C#, Java, and C++ (I know you said C, but you might just have to make a sacrifice here) are pretty similar. Theoretically, it shouldn't be ridiculously hard to limit yourself to a simple subset of functionality that is similar in all 3 languages, write some scripts that convert between the minor syntactical differences in your source files, and you're good to go, right?
The "language" you code in could be your own weird little language, designed with the idea of easy conversion to C#, Java, and C++ in mind. Your make file would first run the conversion script on your backend code, then compile and link everything in the appropriate language/toolchain/platform</not-entirely-serious>
#163645 - sgeos - Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:56 pm
You could document your program structure and do ports. It takes time, and you are subject to conversion bugs, but at the same time it is relatively simple (as the 95% of the logic has been worked out) and you might catch bugs in the original source if you know what you are doing.
#163670 - Lick - Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:37 pm
More RAM, more RAM!
Higher clockspeed, higher clockspeed!
A new DSWiFi library with ad-hoc support!
And I might get one and code again.
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#163738 - tepples - Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:27 am
| gauauu wrote: |
| The "language" you code in could be your own weird little language, designed with the idea of easy conversion to C#, Java, and C++ in mind. Your make file would first run the conversion script on your backend code, then compile and link everything in the appropriate language/toolchain/platform</not-entirely-serious> |
Reading between the lines, I think I see what you're getting at.
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#163758 - gauauu - Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:23 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| Reading between the lines, I think I see what you're getting at. |
Heheh, you actually made me laugh out loud.
That would work also. My thought was more of a compile-time conversion instead of a script/interpreter, but I'd be dumb to argue that lua would necessarily be any worse.
#163765 - silent_code - Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:10 pm
Very nice, tepples, very nice. :^)
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