#167085 - dsl_andy - Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:40 pm
My grade 1 DS obsessed son is learning how to write his letters at the moment and it would be fantastic to have an application that shows a letter form on the top screen and uses the bottom screen to copy that form and check the start, trace direction and finish points of the character.
This could be my first foray into NDS programming if it's never been done.
It's not handwriting recognition, just simple touch, trace and check.
Maybe the rewards are 'credit points' that can be traded with Dad for treats.
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Andy..
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M3DSReal GBAexp NDSLite
#167089 - sgeos - Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:00 pm
The Japanese DS software Doragana by Sega does this. Unfortunately, it is software for learning how to write Japanese characters (kana), so I don't think it will do you any good.
#167106 - dsl_andy - Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:17 am
hmm, thanks anyway - maybe i could distract him into learning Japanese.
I had a look at a 'brain train' junior commercial release which is supposed to have something like this built in - just a drawing program, no pass/fail criteria applied to the tracing of letters
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Andy..
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M3DSReal GBAexp NDSLite
#167125 - Lynx - Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:42 pm
Still a work in progress, but Leo Letters is supposed to be what you are looking for. At this point, it only does capital letters, and doesn't have the recognition, but it does display a letter and allow you to trace it as well as write a few next to the one you traced. Lower case letters will be next and shouldn't be to far off. Cursive is to follow, and hopefully at some point it will have the recognition to assign point values to the "quality" of the letter.
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#167132 - sgeos - Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:43 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| hopefully at some point it will have the recognition to assign point values to the "quality" of the letter. |
I'm not sure that giving honest feedback to a first grader is a good idea. Many if not most kids have horrible handwriting when they first start. For that matter, many adults have horrible handwriting. So far as I can tell, Doragana gives encouragement so long as it can recognize the character. (Never played it, but from what I could gather from the commercial.)
#167133 - Lynx - Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:17 pm
I don't think it would be at the point that they would recognize it was being evaluated. Doing things in my mind is easy, actually getting them done is another. ;) In theory, better writing would unlock "games" to play. I've struggled with just getting to the point I am at. I haven't even begun working on a real "game" framework, but I have it all set in my head. :) Right now, it is just quick and dirty.
BTW, I just uploaded V.02 with Capitals and Lower case.. Adding Cap/Lower cursive should be easy, I just need to do the grunt work for the gfx.
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#167134 - sgeos - Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:52 pm
Given the attention spans of small children, I'll agrue that having to unlock games is silly. I think mom or dad would end up unlocking it most of the time, and they (probably?) don't need the writing practice. This is my experience after observing a couple of friends and their child.
You might want to pick up a copy of Doragana just to see how they do it, seeing as you are making more or less the same thing. It does have games, so far as I can tell.
#167144 - Lynx - Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:12 pm
Man, I wish Doragana was in English, then I could just buy it and be done.
I'll consider your opinion some more and see if I can figure out a way to make it a little more fun. Something tells me it will need more eye candy before anything else at this point.
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#167150 - sgeos - Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:54 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| I'll consider your opinion some more and see if I can figure out a way to make it a little more fun. Something tells me it will need more eye candy before anything else at this point. |
I think lower case letters are a little more important than making the program pretty, but I do think some colorful fun art would help.
#167155 - Lynx - Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:51 pm
My bad.. I didn't mention that I have released .03 that has capitals, lower case, cursive capitals and cursive lower case.. I didn't have to do the GFX grunt work because I had already done it before.. and just forgot. The only hold up was the day it took me to figure out how to add the options. (yes, it took me a whole day of struggling to figure it out).
So technically, it's usable as a mini trainer of sorts.
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#167161 - sgeos - Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:30 am
Good stuff. What is the rationale behind not merging toddler with letters?
#167165 - dsl_andy - Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:35 pm
Fantastic thing the internet isn't it - almost as though if you believe it is out there it turns up..
It's not really about presentation and style for someone of his age, it's more about functionality and reward. The attention span is only a problem if there is no tangiable reward. Don't forget that they learn to write on paper without much more than 'having to do it' as motivation. Even a 'ping' and an increasing number of stars displayed would be enough.
As for recognition - this is where I run out of technical speak - but.. The idea could be to copy a character into a 'lightly greyed out' wider representation of the character on the tough screen. Basically that's just drawing between the lines, not special recognition as such - more like testing the lines are not crossed over.
The perfect program would have a target 'start point' where the pen is first dropped and then a direction of trace - this kind of stuff is defined in something like 'edumax educational products'. they produce a paper version showing where the pen touches, and which way it should go.
Thanks Lynx for this i'll give it a try and let you know what the feedback is from the small, but all time consuming one. Too late tonight to get into it !! Downloading tonight,
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Andy..
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M3DSReal GBAexp NDSLite
#167169 - Lynx - Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:29 pm
| Quote: |
| What is the rationale behind not merging toddler with letters? |
Honestly, I was going to call it "Pre-K" or something like that, but PhoenixRising suggested that I don't make it grade level specific as there are adults that could use such a program (not just because they write sloppy, but if they are learning English) and thought I shouldn't lower the user level to just kids. That, and Toddler was supposed to have colors, shapes, etc. added to it. But, since my kids grew out of it before I could implement it, I no longer have the desire to add them.
| Quote: |
| As for recognition - this is where I run out of technical speak - but.. |
Well, what we have been talking about is using vectors. I don't really get it myself, as it is beyond my programming skills, but we will see if "my help" actually does anything. But, from what I understand, is that we have vector addresses for each step from when the pen hits the paper till you lift it off, and like you are saying, there would be a percentage off the line allowed. Also, if we get to this point, we will be able to show the letters being written.
| Quote: |
| The perfect program would have a target 'start point' where the pen is first dropped and then a direction of trace |
It's funny you mention that.. I forgot about it, but I already have that stuff. I'm going to add it to the top screen next, before I attempt to pretty it up. I noticed that with some of the cursive stuff, without a guide, how would anyone know which way to write it.
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Last edited by Lynx on Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
#167171 - sgeos - Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:15 pm
| Lynx wrote: |
| without a guide, how would anyone know which way to write it. |
This is what parents and teachers are for. =P
Way too hard to implement, but it would be neat if you could link a couple DS units so the parent/teacher/tutor could watch the kid write the letters.
#167180 - Lynx - Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:17 pm
Before I take a lot of time to create these (4x26), wouldn't this be good enough?
This is planned to be on the top screen:
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]
I guess, if we get to the point of using vectors, PhoenixRising said we should be able to animate a pen drawing it on the screen to show how it should be written.. But, without sitting around waiting on someone else, I think this should get us by for now.
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#167190 - sgeos - Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:34 am
I think the arrows should be colored and the numbers should be larger, but if it is a temporary solution I guess it works.
#167237 - Lynx - Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:55 pm
Ok, I added all the guides.. Now, I think, it's time for some cleanup.
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#167332 - dsl_andy - Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:29 am
Lynx - Your drawing is very close, if you like, I'll scan a page of some school homework layout and send it to you if you send me your email address, assuming this does not violate some forum rules. So I don't get autogenerated junk here is most of my email address. (.tuck$talk21.com) replace the $ with @ and put andy in front of the dot.
Overall comments are - very good as a first implementation. I tried it on my son and he (age 6) used it without any real prompting. Admittedly he was not held by it for long, but there is lots of potential here.
Now some of my comments on the implementation so far :
It would be good to move the first letter in from the right a little more (indent).
When in 'drawing mode' use "X" to index to the next letter rather than using start - my son struggled with this approach a little, as start is usually a big change key in a game.
Have two examples of the letter on the touch screen to copy. (It's all about repetition, he was quite happy to copy over the trace but got distracted when he had finished)
No more fancy fonts are required !!
On the subject of recognition (or not) and practicing letters...
You could limit the 'allowable' drawing to the dotted letter +- a number of pixels - simple, just dont let the trace keep working if the student wanders too far away from the dotted lines.
A summary point - this has really high potential keep it really simple, it's what it does at a basic level that is important, it's useable, useful etc.. even as it is.
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Andy..
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M3DSReal GBAexp NDSLite
#167464 - vvedge - Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:41 pm
Hi,
The game "La m?thode Boscher : La journ?e des tout petit" is edited in french, I'm not sure if it has its equivalent in other languages.
VVedge
![[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]](http://leo.ndshb.com/tmp/guideA.png){kind=link}