#51594 - cybereality - Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:12 am
Before you start to flame, let me say that I love both systems. Obviously I like the DS better (which is why we are here), so please dont debate me which has better graphics or something n00bish like that.
What I mean to say is that the PSP homebrew scene is way bigger right now, even with more DS systems sold worldwide. Why is that you ask? It is because the PSP homebrew is available to anyone with enough smarts to download an MP3 off the internet. Similar to the Dreamcast, you dont need any special hardware to run the homebrew titles. Sure the actual development is probably just as difficult, but there is more speed and it will be more forgiving of inefficient code. But for the end user, it is all very simple. You can buy a mem-stick off the shelf at any computer store and have yourself up and running in a night.
The DS, on the otherhand, requires the use of some sort of Flash memory card which can be rather expensive. Maybe once the TCP stack is cracked, you can run homebrew right off the internet, but you still would have to leave your system on to save it in RAM. The only other alternative would be to purchase one of the GB video players that take CF memory, but even those can have issues (mainly that they stick out of the console). The only killer app would be DSlinux or a similar PDA-like program (with internet of course), but that may be some time before that happens. Or maybe the GBA flash cards will come down in price and someone will figure out how to trick the DS without the PassME, but until then, I doubt the DS scene will ever rival the PSP.
// cybereality
#51596 - misunoko - Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:49 am
on one hand i agree the psp took off so quickly cos any one could do there so called "hacks" (which werent really hacks). the psp got the http well and truely b4 the ds(still havnt come close) with the wipeout bug/find. but the psp is soo expensive and its not even released in all countries yet (its not released in my country yet) i think the competion between owning a ds and psp is great the more competition the better both partys will be cos there trying to out develop each other. On the other hand GO THE DS!!!!!!!!!!! lol. i got my ds hombrew upand running for AU$250 the psp by it self when it comes out here will be AU$390 theres a really big price jump there.
#51599 - josath - Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:37 am
You can play homebrew on the ds for $50 (gbamp+passme) + a CF card (many ppl already have, if not, can get a cheap one for $10)
Total price: $130(DS price is being reduced as of tomorrow i believe) + $50(gbamp+passme) + $10(cf card) = $190
Still less than the price of a PSP by itself.
#51601 - misunoko - Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:59 am
i dont know if you noticed my the currency i am talking bout ti australian hence the AU$
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#51602 - cybereality - Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:39 am
Josath, youre kinda right. I didn't factor in the actual cost of the system. I had just got a NeoFlash (which was like $160) so I was factoring that price. But yeah, with the GBAMP and and some memory you can be up and running for like $100 cheaper than a PSP + mem-stick. It still is one extra step, though.
Once they figure out how to connect DS to the internet (I assume after Mario Kart is released and Nintendo releases the service), then the DS may become more useful than PSP. I mean, the web sites look real good on the PSP screen, but its a bitch to navigate. The touch-screen was made for PDA-type applications. In the long run, that may increase the value of DS applications. I guess we'll see.
#51603 - kerrle - Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:40 am
I'm not really sure if I'd agree.
I certainly see the gaming media cover PSP homebrew more, but I'm not convinced that DS dev is actually lagging - pretty cool stuff has been happening somewhere pretty much since day one.
#51604 - joele - Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:11 am
Isn't the psp homebrew impossible to run (at this stage) with the more recent firmware (ie greater than 1.50)???
I wonder what firmware version Australia and the UK get?
And which new PSP games will auto-patch the firmware?
Nintendo have blocked homebrew too with the newer DSs, but at least it was available worldwide first I would guess Europe and Australia get a locked out PSP firmware from day one as they are not released until next month...
Of course both these things may be cracked, but from the little I have read on the PSP forums they don't seem to optimistic about their new firmware?
#51612 - deltro - Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:41 am
I think the PSP HB scene will always be larger because there are more people in the world who take comfort in having a faster processor.
The average american (Sony's target consumer) likes their stuff wireless, cd-based, and instant. They couldn't care less about the long term reprecussions (Analog Dead-Zone, UMD scratces, laser offsetting -DRE's-, and scratches on the HUGE screen, enterance of moisture through the left side of the square button, and 10 minute battery life) of buying quickly compiled crap.
In short- the PSP is ok, but in the long run, the DS will be better.
#51615 - misunoko - Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:58 am
deltro you pro, wat a speech :D lol *claps* did you build up a sweat typeing that ? nice
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#51619 - El Hobito - Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:32 am
i quite disagree in fact there will be little future for psp homebrew. Currently homebrew only runs on the early version firmwares and sony can release new firmware upgrades at anytime to fix any exploit which brings the question, do i wanna use homebrew or do i actually want to play the latest games? Its almost a certainty that gta:ls will require firmware 2.0+ and i think very few people are not gonna want to play it regardless of whether its any good. So users will be forced to upgrade and homebrew will be dead.
#51621 - cybereality - Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:44 am
Im sure someone will crack the new 2.0 firmware, they always do. But for the time being, you need the old firmware for the homebrew. That means no newer titles will play and also no net browser. Most people would update so they can play the hottest games, i'd imagine. Sony has also been notorious for thwatting any kind of mods on the system, so this may effect the scene as well. That being said, I'll have to change my mind about the whole topic. Maybe Sony will kill the PSP homebrew and all the coders will come running here. Who knows? But I can say this, if the DS gets wifi and a browser I have a feeling the DS will be the system of choice for the 1337 h4x0rs, lol!
// cybereality
#51637 - bahnhof - Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:35 pm
Honestly I think the DS scene being smaller is for the better. The attitude of the DS scene is much more 'professional' I would say (ok so there are a few exceptions here and there, mainly people asking for ports and stuff). PSP scene is being crowded by kids who just bought a PSP with a large memorystick wanting to play emulators and stuff we can't really talk about. All the scene seems concerned of is getting emulators rolling and debating firmware issues.
#51651 - Arjan - Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:25 pm
I doubt the PSP scene is bigger than the DS scene. And no, pspupdates.com is not part of the PSP scene (at least not the dev scene). The psp dev scene is hardly working on emulators or debating firmware issues either...
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#51656 - emumaniac - Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:49 pm
pspupdates isnt a part of the PSP dev scene, the real psp scene centres around PS2dev forums, Dcemu uk forums/psp news site and PSPWiki.
I think the DS scene will eventually catch up once more know how to get homebrew on the DS.
#51658 - tepples - Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:04 pm
| josath wrote: |
| Total price: $130(DS price is being reduced as of tomorrow i believe) |
What if, as Joele seems to have suggested, all Nintendo DS systems shipped as of the price cut date have the new "Red DS" firmware that rejects the current version of PassMe? Then we'll be in the position that PSP people are in, where you just can't buy a 1.50 unit at the store anymore.
| El Hobito wrote: |
| Its almost a certainty that gta:ls will require firmware 2.0+ and i think very few people are not gonna want to play it regardless of whether its any good. |
Not everybody likes to play games with that much objectionable content. In fact, given that I often have children in my house, I'm not even thinking of buying a PSP until more E games and G movies are available. Is there an E or E10 rated killer app for the PSP in the near future?
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#51664 - MrAdults - Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:50 pm
I personally am boycotting the PSP, until a port of my favorte game of all time is made.
-Rich
#51668 - natrium42 - Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:04 pm
Dude, my sister wants that game too!
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#51693 - deltro - Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:18 am
If the PSP's price drops, or I can somehow get one for free, I'd take it. The PSP HB scene isn't in too bad of shape. The emulators being ported to it, and the ease of piracy is nice. I'm not willing to drop $250 for it right now, or- probably ever. I got my DS as a gift, and if I were to come across a PSP in the same manner, I wouldn't complain ;). The x86 emu that's out is pretty neat, though slow as hell, and completely worthless.
The DS's limitations are quickly coming into view, though with optimizations, the DS's power also comes into view. The difference between the dirty Nester port, and the NesDS (pnes?) port, is very nice, and the first party games coming for the DS are also a plus. I guess the only thing that would force me to buy a PSP is a Harmonix music game.
-out
deltro.
#51697 - lambi1982 - Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:57 am
The Biggest downside to the PSP homebrew scene is you cant have a cake and eat it too. If you want homebrew you cant get updates, same bull that XBOX does. Nintendo never does the software update thing ( cant say they wont though) I have a PSP it was Ver 1.5 and I played HomeBrew on it most of the time. ( even played some ripped games ( which they all sucked) Except for BLEACH! it was a good thing it was easy to run pirated games, cause it would have sucked to have purchased them to find it out. Soon after I updated, cause I couldnt stand playing GBC and NES games on a $250 LCD screen, I mean game system......
I have Ver 2.0 now and it is great, now I own a $250 half assed web browser, which I like more than if it was on DS( its bad enough trying to view pages with 32MB and a bigger and brighter screen(than the DS))
Bottom line PSP is a media player that can play games, not the other way around..... The DS on the other hand is a True to the word Gaming System that can and will be a media player/ web browser....
Now that I got that out, NINTENDOGS will be out tomorrow and im Excited. I read on IGN that Nintendogs Uses WIFI during gamesplay to communicate with other DS's and not the NiFi, HOPE THIS IS TRUE... I WILL SOON FIND OUT ;)
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#51704 - TJ - Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:59 am
Review sites don't use the term "NiFi", they call multiplayer WiFi (which it is, essentially).
Online games for the DS are referred to as using "Nintendo WiFi Connection" which is the official name of the service.
#51707 - The 9th Sage - Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:22 am
| tepples wrote: |
What if, as Joele seems to have suggested, all Nintendo DS systems shipped as of the price cut date have the new "Red DS" firmware that rejects the current version of PassMe? Then we'll be in the position that PSP people are in, where you just can't buy a 1.50 unit at the store anymore.? |
Now, what do we know about this new firmware exactly? As I seem to remember reading (somewhere), it considers ARM code launched from the GBA cart space to be invalid? There must be some way around this...logically, I'm probably being totally stupid here, but if the homebrew were loaded into RAM and then executed (the loader was bypassed, almost like loading official demos via WiFi) wouldn't that work? Maybe something using the modified Super Mario code that WiFIMe uses... If you could get FlashMe loaded it would be no problem after that...
I'm just hoping this doesn't put a crimp on the DS homebrew scene. Although, really, if you really really wanted to get FlashMe on there and you have this new DS, there is Darkfader's parelell port flasher. That sounds like a pain in the butt though, and folks like me who have no, erm, 'mad soldering skills' wouldn't be trying that anytime soon.
Ah I don't know, not like I know everything about this stuff to be able to magically figure it out. Someone please at least let me know if I'm totally wrong on how this new firmware rev works. :P
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#51737 - tepples - Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:46 am
| deltro wrote: |
| I guess the only thing that would force me to buy a PSP is a Harmonix music game. |
You can jam with the band, or if you're afraid that NOA is going to cancel it the way it canceled the (U) and (E) versions of Mother 1+2 (for GBA) and the (U) versions of Kuru Kuru Kururin and Nintendo Puzzle Collection, you can import it.
| TJ wrote: |
| Review sites don't use the term "NiFi", they call multiplayer WiFi (which it is, essentially). |
True, it is technically "Wi-Fi" because it's an implementation of an 802.11b data link, but the term "Ni-Fi" means "Nintendo's proprietary layer 3 over 802.11b" because in practice, "Wi-Fi" carries a connotation of an IPv4 network on top. In fact, most "Wi-Fi" cards for PC (other than those using Ralink's chipset) mangle packets such that anything but IPv4 won't work correctly.
| TJ wrote: |
| Online games for the DS are referred to as using "Nintendo WiFi Connection" which is the official name of the service. |
True, and most people are likely to associate Wi-Fi with other "hotspots" that use IPv4 as layer 3.
| The 9th Sage wrote: |
| As I seem to remember reading (somewhere), it considers ARM code launched from the GBA cart space to be invalid? |
That was from me, and it was a conjecture.
| The 9th Sage wrote: |
| I'm probably being totally stupid here, but if the homebrew were loaded into RAM and then executed (the loader was bypassed, almost like loading official demos via WiFi) wouldn't that work? Maybe something using the modified Super Mario code that WiFIMe uses... If you could get FlashMe loaded it would be no problem after that... |
WiFiMe is just the SM64DS stub with its header hacked in the same way that PassMe modifies the code on a cart, so it'd have the same problem as PassMe. There is another option, but it involves disassembling the actual code of the SM64DS stub. I've suggested this several times as a possible foolproof way to keep homebrew WMB going no matter how Niиtendo might revise the DS firmware, but nobody seems to want to take the time to do this.
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#51743 - chishm - Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:26 am
| tepples wrote: |
| WiFiMe is just the SM64DS stub with its header hacked in the same way that PassMe modifies the code on a cart, so it'd have the same problem as PassMe. There is another option, but it involves disassembling the actual code of the SM64DS stub. I've suggested this several times as a possible foolproof way to keep homebrew WMB going no matter how Niиtendo might revise the DS firmware, but nobody seems to want to take the time to do this. |
Not while there are currently working methods of booting unsigned code. The effort involved is not worth (current) payoff, especially with the fact that we'd have to get wireless working on the DS side first. Once PassMe-incompatible DSs start flooding the market, the payoff will be enough to make it worthwhile.
#51775 - nix - Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:48 pm
Someone mentioned hardware problems with the PSP, and possible ways it can get busted. Lets put it this way, I bought a DS and a PSP around the same time, and both get about the same play. My PSP is currently still fine, while the L and R buttons on my DS currently dont function. Don't think the DS is indestructible or that the hardware is better than the PSP. They both have their problems.
#51788 - tepples - Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:13 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| Once PassMe-incompatible DSs start flooding the market |
Given what we know about the red DS, and also given that console makers like to introduce hardware revisions at the same time as price cuts such as the August cut to 130 USD, once is now.
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#51794 - natrium42 - Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:13 pm
| chishm wrote: |
| Once PassMe-incompatible DSs start flooding the market, the payoff will be enough to make it worthwhile. |
Loopy hacked the new DS already... It requires a change in PassMe CPLD code and a GBA cart with SRAM. To run existing homebrews, a custom loader is needed too (which is simple enough to make).
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#51805 - The 9th Sage - Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:20 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| The 9th Sage wrote: | | As I seem to remember reading (somewhere), it considers ARM code launched from the GBA cart space to be invalid? |
That was from me, and it was a conjecture.
*snipping quotes*
WiFiMe is just the SM64DS stub with its header hacked in the same way that PassMe modifies the code on a cart, so it'd have the same problem as PassMe. There is another option, but it involves disassembling the actual code of the SM64DS stub. I've suggested this several times as a possible foolproof way to keep homebrew WMB going no matter how Niиtendo might revise the DS firmware, but nobody seems to want to take the time to do this. |
Ah, well you're probably right about that conjecture there...it MUST be doing something, and it wouldn't hurt game compatibility or anything for them to do this and it'd easily block piracy (which I assume is what they're worried about). I guess I wasn't thinking about the WfiMe binary either...I know what it is pretty much, but I was thinking that someone could insert code into it and run it directly. I'm sure Nintendo would hate this though, and I'm sure that if this was a viable solution somebody would have done it by now.
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#51806 - The 9th Sage - Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:22 pm
| nix wrote: |
| Someone mentioned hardware problems with the PSP, and possible ways it can get busted. Lets put it this way, I bought a DS and a PSP around the same time, and both get about the same play. My PSP is currently still fine, while the L and R buttons on my DS currently dont function. Don't think the DS is indestructible or that the hardware is better than the PSP. They both have their problems. |
I actually had this problem as well, my L button got busted somehow. I reflashed my firmware back to factory default and sent it to Nintendo to get a new one. Worked like a charm. :P
| natrium42 wrote: |
Loopy hacked the new DS already... It requires a change in PassMe CPLD code and a GBA cart with SRAM. To run existing homebrews, a custom loader is needed too (which is simple enough to make). |
Ah, really? I thought he'd just hacked the iQUE DS. That's good news then.
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#51869 - tepples - Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:30 am
| The 9th Sage wrote: |
| I guess I wasn't thinking about the WfiMe binary either...I know what it is pretty much, but I was thinking that someone could insert code into it and run it directly. |
An unmodified Nintendo DS will verify the digital signature on the SM64DS stub itself, but it's possible that the stub skips verify the code and assets that the SM64DS server sends after sending the stub. So if the PC could emulate a WMB server (which it already does) and then emulate a SM64DS server (which would require some packet capturing and possibly some disassembly to learn the protocol), then it might be able to boot homebrew that way.
I can guarantee with 99.9 percent probability that SM64DS does not use the SMB protocol.
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#51880 - nix - Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:51 am
| The 9th Sage wrote: |
| nix wrote: | | Someone mentioned hardware problems with the PSP, and possible ways it can get busted. Lets put it this way, I bought a DS and a PSP around the same time, and both get about the same play. My PSP is currently still fine, while the L and R buttons on my DS currently dont function. Don't think the DS is indestructible or that the hardware is better than the PSP. They both have their problems. |
I actually had this problem as well, my L button got busted somehow. I reflashed my firmware back to factory default and sent it to Nintendo to get a new one. Worked like a charm. :P
|
Hmm.. Might have to try that myself. Irregardless, this is off-topic.