#115622 - Tantrum - Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:18 am
Being the owner of a slot-1 cart for homebrew I'm unable to use the slot-1 ds motion. I wanted to start a thread covering all the questions about the possibility of a slot 2 version of the DS Motion. Hopefully KeithE will answer :D
Firstly, will there be one? (I want one :) The website indicates there's a prototype slot-2 version, so I'd guess that it's probable.
When will a slot 2 version be available? Not really after a date, just want an idea if it's weeks or months.
What can I do to accelerate the development of a slot-2 version? Would buying a slot-1 version help?
Do you need to guage the interest in a slot-2 version, or are you already convinced to create one?
Will the slot 2 version be an adaptor for the slot 1 version, or a dedicated slot 2 device?
Will the API for the slot-2 version be the same as the slot-1 version? Will software developed now for the slot-1 version work seamlessly with the slot-2?
As slot-2 is oriented differently to slot-1 will that cause any problems? I've read that you need to 'teach' the card what level is, so maybe it's not even a problem?
Does the extra physical space available to a slot-2 version tempt you into adding any extra features?
Plz add more slot-2 related questions!
#115628 - mastertop101 - Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:39 am
You could use ds motion sensor, just enable it after swapping your slot-1>ds motion
#115629 - tepples - Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:41 am
The SLOT-2 motion sensor is called a Yoshi Topsy-Turvy Game Pak.
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#115630 - Tantrum - Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:47 am
| mastertop101 wrote: |
| You could use ds motion sensor, just enable it after swapping your slot-1>ds motion |
As a temporary solution, that might be fine, but if your homebrew uses libfat to load files on demand then it will require that the slot-1 memory cart stay in slot-1.
#115634 - spinal_cord - Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:09 am
| Quote: |
| Will the slot 2 version be an adaptor for the slot 1 version |
I like that idea, it might be a little cheaper too?
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#115639 - KeithE - Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:10 am
I'm glad to hear there is interest in a slot-2 version. It will be useful for slot-1 card owners, and commercial developers as well. I certainly am planning on making them. I will call it the DS Motion Pak.
Yes, I've made a prototype slot-2 version. Actually, the prototype is just a DS Motion Card cut and soldered into a GBA cartridge PCB, connecting the appropriate pins. Since the GBA slot only has a parallel port, not a serial port, the code to communicate with it is a series of reads from specific SRAM addresses (this essentially creates a serial port). It works, but I'm going to make a better version with a microcontroller to handle the communication translation. With the method I used for the prototype, it doesn't work if any interrupts occur during the reading of the motion card - the delays caused by the interrupt interfere with the communication.
It will be months before the slot-2 version is done - the earliest it will be done is May - probably not until June. There's really nothing you can do to accelerate the development. Some of the time is waiting for components, some of it is design, testing, debugging, and some of it is manufacturing time.
The slot-2 version will not be an adapter, it will be a separate cartridge. I don't have the resources to do any custom plastic molding, so I need to work with cartridge shells that are already existing.
The low-level code to communicate with the slot-2 version will be different than the slot-1 version, but there will be high-level functions that accomplish exactly the same tasks as the DS Motion Card functions. Software developed for the slot-1 version will not work with the slot-2 version, but it could very easily be adapted to the slot-2 version (about 5 minutes of changing the source code).
I will make the slot-2 version orientation the same as the slot-1 version.
Extra features - I was thinking it would be cool to add rumble. I've heard that the rumble in the supercard is terrible - not worth having. Anyone have any comments on that? If it is no good, then I'd need to be able to buy the same rumble "force reactor" that is in the official cartridges. It would probably be expensive in low quantities though, so I'll most likely just keep the same features as the slot-1 version.
Yes, the Yoshi Topsy-Turvy Game Pak will work for some things, but the sensor in it is not nearly as good as the sensors I'm using. It is only dual axis, not as precise or accurate, and has more cross-axis sensitivity and noise.
#115646 - HyperHacker - Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:52 am
I know I said this before, but GPS would be an awesome extra feature. If it had that I'd buy one even though I already have the Slot-1 version.
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#115674 - spinal_cord - Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:32 am
Wouldn't force feed back (rumble) make the sensors go completely wacky, I would know if thats a good or bad thing. Never used rumble on a handheld before.
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#115687 - Tantrum - Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:46 am
Thanks for the excellent response KeithE :D I'm looking forward to it.
#115688 - Darkflame - Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:46 am
imo rumble is always good, double so with motion sensing.
WarioWare Twisted and the Wii would be a hundred fold worse without it, imho.
| spinal_cord wrote: |
| Wouldn't force feed back (rumble) make the sensors go completely wacky |
Thats sonys excuse, real men dont use it ;)
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#115713 - KeithE - Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:21 pm
Yes, the sensors will pick up the rumble, but actually that can be a good thing.
For example, I hacked an accelerometer into a gamecube controller to replace the left analog joystick, and I left the rumble motors connected. When playing super monkey ball, when you hit an obstacle, the rumble motors vibrate, and the accelerometer picks that up, which makes the character shake on the screen. In my opinion, that is actually a better reaction to hitting an obstacle than just vibrating - the "feedback" goes both ways - from the console to the player, and back again to to the console via the accelerometer.
I'm not going to do GPS - it will add too much cost.
#115723 - scknight - Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:38 pm
| HyperHacker wrote: |
| I know I said this before, but GPS would be an awesome extra feature. If it had that I'd buy one even though I already have the Slot-1 version. |
I'd also certainly buy one if it had GPS in it.
#115760 - Lynx - Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:41 pm
Would you still buy it if it was $150 - $200?
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#115771 - HyperHacker - Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:37 am
Ouch, good point. >_<
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#115858 - slag - Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:59 pm
Being an owner of a slot2 homebrew device (EZFlashIV) I'm naturally a fan of the DS Motion Card (not so much the Pak, but I like that it will be available to people who have a slot1 homebrew device.)
I am concerned, however, that releasing a slot2 motion sensing device will "kill" the DS Motion Card. Are you concerned about this at all, Keith? I see more and more people opting to buy slot1 flash storage devices because they're cheaper and easier than slot2 + a passcard. However, I don't feel that slot1 homebrew kits are "better" when viewed from a hardware perspective - they support less features than their slot2 counterparts.
I anticipate that because of the popularity of slot1 flash carts, most games will be developed for the slot2 version of the motion sensor. How difficult will it be to port code from the slot2 version to the slot1 version? I'm a bit worried that slot2 flash cartridges will die - not because they're inferior by any means, but simply because they seem to be losing popularity.
Are my fears unfounded?
#115863 - sirpoonga - Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:59 pm
I don't think that is the case. Both slots have pros and cons. From your point of view slot 2 has more pros. From most developers they do. From an end user point of view the slot 1 is very tempting, no patching, more compatibility, etc...
There's still many people with slot 2 devices so I don;t think there is anything to worry about.
I plan on getting both for development purposes. I want to make sure my stuff works on either.
One of the reasons slot 1 is gaining popularity is they are a DS cart and they are less hassle. I like my dsx because it fits in a normal ds cart case.
Ultimately I would like a slot 1 and 2 device combo. The slot 2 will be a rumble pak with extra storage capabilities. The only thing you'd really be missing then is sram.
#115864 - KeithE - Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:03 pm
You bring up a very good point. I think we can create functions for libnds that will work for both slot-1 and slot-2 motion sensors. Any games created before the slot-2 motion pak is done will need to be recompiled to work with both, but anything that uses the new (not created yet) functions will work with both devices.
#115865 - NeX - Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:03 pm
A good solution would be a library that auto detects both slot-1 and slot-2 motion devices. And passes the data from either through the same function.
#115891 - Lynx - Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:55 pm
Well, untill slot-1 media devices have better homebrew support, I don't really see there being a benefit to a slot-2 motion sensor, as most people purchasing slot-1 devices aren't buying them for homebrew, it is more of an after thought like "hey, now that I can play all my illegally downloaded warez romz, what's this I hear about a homebrew MP3 player?"
But, once the slot-1 devices are homebrew friendly, I think all future "add-on" hardware will need to be slot-2 devices.
So, to the real question: Are slot-1 manufacturers going to help make their devices homebrew friendly?
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#115896 - Firon - Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:28 am
Uh... they already are homebrew friendly. Every single slot-1 device has a DLDI driver available. The only one that sucks is the EZ5, since it has special requirements to boot homebrew. http://chishm.drunkencoders.com/DLDI/
#115899 - tepples - Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:48 am
SLOT-1 cards are not capable of running GBA homebrew, even multiboots, unless and until someone develops some sort of virtualization program that maps GBA I/O onto DS I/O. Or do you expect every GBA homebrew developer to drop everything and port all their back catalog to the DS?
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#115916 - KeithE - Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
The main benefit of a slot-2 motion sensor for me is the ability for commercial developers to use it. The way I see it is the DS Motion Card is for homebrew developers, and the DS Motion Pak for commercial developers.
#115918 - stampede_dude - Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:04 am
GPS: Not as costly as one would think. Certainly wouldn't be built in, but wouldn't cost near $200...
http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/gbagps.html
GBA GPS
http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/lassenmodule.html
GBA GPS w/ Lassen SQ stamp-sized GPS module
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=163
Lassen SQ GPS module for $50
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmjc312QQhtZ-1
Compatible GPS reciever board with 20 pin plug and antenna mount. Perfect for using it with multiple systems, and it's compatible with the software above. Only $18.99 shipped, although significantly larger than the Lassen SQ.
#115969 - Dood77 - Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:56 pm
I think it would be great after all these slot-1 cards get better support, is to have and all-in-one slot 2 card with a motion sensor and as much high speed ram they could cram in there. Sure it might be pretty expensive, but what developer doesnt want more ram? And how much would be possible to cram in there? 128MB?
#115981 - sirpoonga - Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:56 pm
| Firon wrote: |
| Uh... they already are homebrew friendly. Every single slot-1 device has a DLDI driver available. The only one that sucks is the EZ5, since it has special requirements to boot homebrew. http://chishm.drunkencoders.com/DLDI/ |
Not the dsx, which is my main reason I am going to sell my dsx when the replacement comes.
#115983 - Lynx - Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:58 pm
| stampede_dude wrote: |
GPS: Not as costly as one would think. Certainly wouldn't be built in, but wouldn't cost near $200...
|
You lost me.. So, what is the total cost for a GPS module that can interface with the DS, be in a commercial package, and also have software available for it to work? Keep in mind that it'll probably cost more than the combination of all the parts.
But, if you can build and sell them for the ~$60 price range (as you can purchase a handheld GPS for $80) I'll buy one for sure!
Not to mention being lost in the woods with the rain pouring down, and you can't find your way out because you don't want to ruin your DS. :)
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#116006 - Firon - Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:45 am
| sirpoonga wrote: |
Not the dsx, which is my main reason I am going to sell my dsx when the replacement comes. |
Use the MK2/3 DLDI. http://chishm.drunkencoders.com/DLDI/downloads/nmmc.dldi
#116060 - chuckstudios - Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:07 pm
XD you couldn't find that DLDI last night.
#116083 - Firon - Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:47 pm
You shut up. :P
#116132 - josath - Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:49 am
From what I've heard, it doesn't matter what driver you use. DS-X will patch the homebrew (as it loads, not the file itself). I heard someone saying they removed the MK2/3 driver and it still worked on their DS-X, it was just 'detected' as some other device.
Either way, it is definately not perfect, and I wish they would release some code/specs like they have promised in the past.
#116150 - sirpoonga - Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:29 pm
| josath wrote: |
Either way, it is definately not perfect, and I wish they would release some code/specs like they have promised in the past. |
Yeah, the way the dsx handles that seems hodge podge. I'd rather work with something that has predictable results.
#116752 - wintermute - Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:08 am
| Dood77 wrote: |
| I think it would be great after all these slot-1 cards get better support, is to have and all-in-one slot 2 card with a motion sensor and as much high speed ram they could cram in there. Sure it might be pretty expensive, but what developer doesnt want more ram? And how much would be possible to cram in there? 128MB? |
32MB of RAM which can't handle 8bit writes.
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#116910 - OrR - Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:51 pm
I'd love to see a slot 2 version, even though I already bought the slot 1 card. Especially if it has rumble!
Then maybe an unlicensed DS card could be produced with motion sensitive games. Of course, I'd like to see any kind of unlicensed DS card. B-)
#116947 - HyperHacker - Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:18 am
It should be possible to have more than 32MB, just not all mapped in at once. I was thinking for an OS, it might be nice to have 64-128MB mapped in in either 1MB or 32MB chunks, so that each app could have its own piece without having to worry about relocation.
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#117097 - Dood77 - Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:09 am
Exactly, how great would it be to be playing a game, pause it to send an email, while listening to mp3s all the while? Of course making a capable OS then implementing multitasking into each app would take time/talent but i can dream...
#117098 - Firon - Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:25 am
Lack of CPU power would make that a lot harder.
#117127 - tepples - Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:07 pm
CPU should not be a problem if you s/mp3/mp2/. My 25 MHz 486 PC ran a (cooperative) multitasking OS called Windows 3.1.
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#117804 - Mallin - Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:01 pm
| stampede_dude and others wrote: |
| GPS on the DS |
I believe this is what you are looking for
DSSerial + GPS + Natrium42 = Coolness
Now lets leave the poor guy alone to make some amazing motion sensing devices. I am really looking forward to the slot 2 version.
#118698 - KeithE - Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:18 pm
I just received some samples of rumble motors that I was planning to test for the slot-2 motion pak, but unfortunately they are too large to fit.
So, I'm trying to get samples of this product
http://www.alps.co.jp/e/news_release/2005/0608_01.htm
Anyone know of other inexpensive, small rumble motors that could be used?
#119251 - Mallin - Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:29 am
Sorry, I can't help with the rumble motors, but I had an interesting idea when I was reading this article today.
I was wondering if you couldn't make the slot 2 version an even more diverse sensor package, if you could put an infared light sensor like boktai and an electromagnetic sensor like the game in the article, I could only imagine the homebrew potential.
Like a homebrew star trek tri-corder O.o
#119271 - JessTicular - Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:22 am
Mallin,
If you want that kind of funtionatlity, it's going to shoot the price of this card way too high. Then noone will buy it, and subsequently, it will die leaving only you and Keith able to play any games you may make :P
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#119294 - Mallin - Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:53 pm
I seriously doubt that an Infared sensor would add more than a dollar or 2 to the cost, same with the electro-magenetic sensor, I imagine that those special new rumble devices on that link cost more.
#119308 - sgeos - Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:51 pm
I don't know about electronics, but I've heard that average goods cost 2.5 times the production price at retail. $2 -> $5, $4 -> $10. I think a multi sensor pack would be a lot of fun, but the components will add up.
A merchant doesn't want $33 tied up in something that only sells for $35, unless that item moves very fast. If they are only going to make $2 either way, they want something with a wholesale price of $2 or $3.
-Brendan
#119391 - Mallin - Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:20 pm
Well I know that the infrared sensing diodes are ~$1 or less
#119492 - KeithE - Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:48 pm
The DS Motion Pak will only have motion sensors - accelerometer and gyro.
However.....
It will have the capability to add any 2 analog sensors that can operate on 3.3V. I'll make sure there are some easy places to solder to Vdd, GND, and the 2 extra analog input pins to the microcontroller (Yes, it has a microcontroller).
I'll also leave the microcontroller programming pins accessible so you can change the firmware if you have the knowledge and desire to do so. I will not, however, be supporting custom firmware like Natrium42 is doing with DSerial.
There is no scheduled release date yet - spring/summer 2007 is the best estimate I can give.
#119520 - sgeos - Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:21 pm
Assuming one wanted to order a bunch of units in a custom configuration (5k to 50k pcs), how difficult would that be to arrange?
-Brendan
#119536 - KeithE - Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:30 am
Not difficult at all. Just PM me or email me with what you want and we'll take it from there.
#125874 - KeithE - Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:18 pm
The slot-2 motion sensor (official name: DS Motion Pak) is now available for pre-order from dspassme.com.
Shipping by the end of May 2007 - about 6 weeks from now.
#129564 - KeithE - Wed May 23, 2007 8:03 pm
The Slot-2 DS Motion Paks are ready.
New ndsmotion functions allow developers to write games that work with the DS Motion Card, the DS Motion Pak, and the MK6 Motion. Download the new functions from devkitpro CVS - http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=114505
Enjoy!
#133377 - Ploes - Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:16 pm
Got my Slot2 today!
Easy to change it from the full size device to fit into the smaller NDS lite... how ever I've seen pics of both Black and White ones, mines White but I have a Black NDS! Doh! Its not an issue, but its a shame.
#133396 - sirpoonga - Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:21 pm
| Ploes wrote: |
Easy to change it from the full size device to fit into the smaller NDS lite... how ever I've seen pics of both Black and White ones, mines White but I have a Black NDS! Doh! Its not an issue, but its a shame. |
We should trade then, I have the black pak but a white ds :)
#133528 - Ploes - Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:18 pm
Your not in the UK tho are you!
Would sort both are problems tho wouldn't it! *sigh*
#135378 - darkfader - Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:05 pm
I just bought a DS lite. (finally)
Does the slot-2 version fit in the original DS lite dummy cartridge? I assume so. There are no good closeup pictures of it.
Or does it come with a lite cartridge already?
#135448 - KeithE - Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:22 pm
It does not fit in the DS lite dummy cartridge (well, it might with some trimming).
However, there is no need for it to fit in the dummy cartridge, because the case is changeable between a fat size and a lite size - all the required pieces are included.