#131379 - jandujar - Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:49 pm
Hello everybody.
I haved been thinking of doing a NDS dev OS or something similar to help new NDS developers begin. And finally, I do it.
I hope you like this, and contribute to grow the catalog of NDS homebrew sourcecodes ready to compilate and RUN. Expecially for NDS librarys developers can use. Like libpng, zlib, palib, sdl, etc..
From http://jandujar.homelinux.com/index.php/NDS_DEV_OS
NDS-DEV-OS means Nintendo DS developer's Operating System. The main purpose of this OS is to help news developers to create homebrew for Nintendo DS as soon as possible, giving an Operating System with all the nds tools and librarys installed, ready to start new development.
Another purpose NDS-DEV-OS have is to be the largest collection of NDS Homebrew sources, to help people understand the tricks of the NDS developers Gurus.
[Subject Line Fairy was here]
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#131381 - Lick - Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:26 pm
libcartreset is now rebootlib. Could you update that?
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#131382 - jandujar - Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:42 pm
of course. And you too. Only need to upload newer version
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#131405 - DragonMinded - Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:11 am
If you gotta compile apps specifically for this, I hate to break it to you but noone will use it. Only one person has written a plugin for the DSO architecture so far, and that's widely distributed.
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#131411 - OOPMan - Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:45 am
Er, I think you guys have the wrong end of the stick...
This is not an OS on the NDS...
It's a VMWare Image pre-made for DS development...
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#131413 - jandujar - Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:52 am
I do not compile applications for NDS-DEV-OS, just put the source files with some modifications in "Makefiles" to let it build in NDS-DEV-OS.
I hope you are wrong and people use the NDS-DEV-OS . In fact, NDS-DEV-OS is just a Linux environment with some source codes ready to build. People could see the code of this applications and use them, etc..
I will try to put DS Organize in the NDS-DEV-OS. With your permition, of course.
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#131447 - tondopie - Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:25 pm
this looks like a great idea... before using it, what does the interface look like?
#131470 - DragonMinded - Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:58 am
| OOPMan wrote: |
Er, I think you guys have the wrong end of the stick...
This is not an OS on the NDS...
It's a VMWare Image pre-made for DS development... |
This should be detailed then.
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#131576 - Darkflame - Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:54 pm
| DragonMinded wrote: |
| If you gotta compile apps specifically for this, I hate to break it to you but noone will use it. Only one person has written a plugin for the DSO architecture so far, and that's widely distributed. |
Well, I was trying to write a simple alarm clock one, but I was too stupid to work out how to retrieve the internal clock :p
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#131642 - wintermute - Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:17 pm
I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that this "package" is neither sanctioned nor recommended by devkitPro.org. It also violates the GPL on several counts.
A word of caution for potential users:
Like every prior repackaging of devkitPro toolchains this is unlikely to be kept up to date and appears to provide no way of automating the update of toolchain components. No contact has been made with the devkitPro team requesting permission or advice for this package. Use at your own risk.
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#131699 - zAlbee - Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:35 am
| Darkflame wrote: |
| DragonMinded wrote: | | If you gotta compile apps specifically for this, I hate to break it to you but noone will use it. Only one person has written a plugin for the DSO architecture so far, and that's widely distributed. |
Well, I was trying to write a simple alarm clock one, but I was too stupid to work out how to retrieve the internal clock :p |
I've been thinking of using the DSO plugin format myself, for a homebrew application that I would like to write. If only I had more free time...
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#131729 - Lynx - Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:03 pm
On top of what WinterMute said, it's going to be a major pain once the next DevkitPro version is released. Is someone going to go through and make sure all the provided source code still compiles on the newest version? Also, using a Linux based environment.. you should call it a "media adapter" developer OS, as most (I think I only know of 2) GBA Flash Cart linkers don't have drivers for Linux.
I think you will see that we'll get one release (building this package is really not a big deal) and once jandujar realizes the amount of work involved to keep it working, and up to date, it might not see a new release again.
You'd be better off writing a tutorial on how to do it. something like:
1) Download this VMWare image (and here is how to use it)
2) Download/install DevkitPro
3) Download/install PAlib
4) DevkitPro and PAlib examples overview
5) starting from scratch
6) Updating your envirnment
etc..
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#131731 - jandujar - Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:14 pm
The purpose of the NDS-DEV-OS is to help new developer's to build applications as soon as possible, and have a large amount of librarys/homebrew ready to use. (freetype, libjpeg, zlib, etc...) without waste time of searching this librarys and try compile/include in his/her homebrew.
I modify every Makefile to use environment variables like $DEVKITPRO, $DEVKITARM, $PAPATH, $SDLPATH, etc...
At this moment I have settup the environment variable DEVKITARM to $HOME/devkitpro/devkitarm_r20. When r21 becomes available I will update this variable and "recompile all the homebrew", if something does not compile I will try to fix them, of use the devkitarm_r20 to build it.
At this moment I'm uploading librarys, libsdl, libfreetype, libjpeg, zlib, etc...
I will update the site this week whith a newer version. You could use it or not, but I think more people will use it.
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#131732 - wintermute - Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:16 pm
I strongly suggest you familiarise yourself with the GPL before proceeding further. You are currently in violation of that license. Your best approach is probably to follow Lynx's advice.
The devkitPro toolchains are the result of almost 4 years of work and almost everyone who has attempted to repackage them has broken them in some way. The majority of devkitPro toolchain users are quite happy with the current installer/updater system and I will not support users of your repackaging effort.
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#131733 - jandujar - Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:45 pm
Hello wintermute,
can you explain me why I'm currently in violation of that GPL license?
I put the source of every program, and put a README.TXT and LICENSE.TXT for each one. And always cite the author/s site.
Maybe I need to create an script to download the latest DEVKITPRO and DEVKITARM from net and build the library automatically to "unviolate" the GPL license?
Perhaps I explained bad, I "only" modify the homebrew who does not compile under the default devkitarm. Adding the "ds_rules" in makefile, etc....
I apologized for my english.
NOTE: devkitpro nominated on sourceforge awards. ;)
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#131752 - wintermute - Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:19 pm
The GPL requires that you provide the source code to the binaries that you provide for download. Currently the sources required to build the devkitPro toolchains weigh in at around 100megs.
You may not link to the sources provided by devkitPro, you must provide your own hosting for these files. Any downloads you provide will not be supported by devkitPro.
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#SourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites
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#131753 - wintermute - Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:34 pm
| jandujar wrote: |
NOTE: devkitpro nominated on sourceforge awards. ;) |
Also, thanks for this, it's much appreciated.
My major concern with your repackaging is that it will differ from the standard install and thus cause problems for users who will then seek support from me. This has happened in the past and resulted in considerable problems where users where unable to build code without first removing the 3rd party install and reinstalling using the devkitPro official installer.
The toolchains will be updated again in a few weeks at most - at that point libnds in particular will be dependent on the new toolchain. I am also currently investigating the possibility of providing an updater for linux and OSX in order to keep the users on those platforms up to date as well. If I understand your package correctly you will then have to track those updates and rebuild your VMWARE image for every update of every library.
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#131775 - Darkflame - Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:11 am
| zAlbee wrote: |
| Darkflame wrote: | | DragonMinded wrote: | | If you gotta compile apps specifically for this, I hate to break it to you but noone will use it. Only one person has written a plugin for the DSO architecture so far, and that's widely distributed. |
Well, I was trying to write a simple alarm clock one, but I was too stupid to work out how to retrieve the internal clock :p |
I've been thinking of using the DSO plugin format myself, for a homebrew application that I would like to write. If only I had more free time... |
Yeah, I know that problem.
Currently I got 3 seperate bits of freelance, and half a dozen existing personal projects on the go.
~sigh~
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#131800 - jandujar - Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:23 am
Ok wintermute, I will cancel NDS-DEV-OS due to GPL license violating.
The only thing I want, is help people developing for NDS. Maybe I haved done things bad. Although the main idea of the project stills remained. Be the largest collection of homebrew/ libraries package ready to build and use.
I will create a new project called NDS-DEV-PACK (name suggestions will be appreciated), which will retain the main idea of the original project.
A collection of homebrew/libraries sources zipped with some minor scripts to build them in any DEVKITPRO environment (Linux, Mac OS and Windows), using only two environment variables, $DEVKITPRO, and $DEVKITARM, the sames libnds template uses.
Of course, I will explain how to Install DEVKITPRO in any machine. Linux, windows with msys or cygwin, and mac os.
- What do you thing about this new project?
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#131832 - wintermute - Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:03 pm
| jandujar wrote: |
The only thing I want, is help people developing for NDS. Maybe I haved done things bad. Although the main idea of the project stills remained. Be the largest collection of homebrew/ libraries package ready to build and use.
|
That's quite ambitious. What libraries did you have in mind?
I've often considered a devkitPro subproject to provide ports of useful libraries such as libpng, libjpeg etc but, as always I lack the time to think about it much. I'm also a bit disdainful about things like libSDL on a console like the DS so I haven't really spent a lot of time looking into those sort of support libraries. This is probably something that will be pretty useful.
| Quote: |
Of course, I will explain how to Install DEVKITPRO in any machine. Linux, windows with msys or cygwin, and mac os.
|
Cygwin is not now nor will it ever be a supported devkitPro platform. There have been considerable problems with that in the past and if you think I gave you grief about the GPL then you'll enjoy the attention you get from the cygwin people if you provide downloads of any of their tools.
As for the install instructions I'm not convinced they're entirely necessary. As I said previously I'm currently looking into a cross platform installer/updater which will then become the preferred method of obtaining devkitPro toolchains.
| Quote: |
- What do you thing about this new project? |
I'd need to understand what you actually intend to provide before commenting further.
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#131904 - jandujar - Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:34 am
The project is simple. Only a zip package with source code of some applications, emulators, games, and librariess with some kind of GPL or some similar license ready to build if you have already setup the devkitpro environment. With automatic tools to submit newer homebrew/librarys
Of course, I will not include any cygwin, msys , devkitpro binary or source files. Only instructions to setup the environment.
I don't know the cygwin have problems with devkitpro. Ok, less work to me. xD
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#132129 - wintermute - Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:27 pm
Ok, finally I get some time to write a reply that's been fermenting for a couple of days.
Personally I think that porting libraries such as libSDL, libpng, libjpeg etc would be more useful to the community as a whole than a collection of DS specific homebrew applications or emulators. I'm sure there are a few other libraries that people would like to see on the DS.
Most of these libraries are easy enough to port, if you know what you're doing, and it's definitely a skill worth acquiring. Generally it's better to massage their makefiles or configuration system a little rather than trying to fit them into the devkitPro build system. I can probably help point you in the right direction with this sort of thing.
I think you'll give yourself a lot less work in the long run if you keep them separate instead of trying to squeeze everything into one single zip. It's a lot easier to replace a small archive than a big one.
I'm not sure what you mean by "applications, emulators, games and libraries with some kind of GPL or some similar license". You can't just relicense other people's work because you chose to offer it as part of a collection.
With other people's work where it's not a large open source project I think it's better to point users to the proper website where they can get support and newer versions. The programmers may even welcome some help if you get in touch with them first but I would advise making contact before including their work in your own package, unless of course that their license specifies that their permission is not needed.
The idea of automatic tools to submit newer homebrew/libraries sounds intriguing although I get the impression that Lynx's new project is along these lines. Perhaps you'd like to get involved with what he's doing, I'm pretty sure he'll need some help.
See http://dl.ndshb.com/
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#132133 - route66 - Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:25 pm
| wintermute wrote: |
| No contact has been made with the devkitPro team requesting permission |
He doesn't need your permission.
If he wants to continue this project then he shouldn't feel pressured to stop. It's his work and energy, not yours, so your opinions doesn't matter if you think it's a worth while use of time.
Your concerns about GPL are valid, but he can't even host the binaries of this project so why not cut him some slack?
#132136 - tepples - Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:29 pm
| route66 wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: | | No contact has been made with the devkitPro team requesting permission |
He doesn't need your permission. |
To use the devkitPro name he might.
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#132168 - wintermute - Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:45 am
| route66 wrote: |
| wintermute wrote: | | No contact has been made with the devkitPro team requesting permission |
He doesn't need your permission.
|
He does where devkitPro, devkitARM and part of the codebase is concerned.
| Quote: |
Your concerns about GPL are valid, but he can't even host the binaries of this project so why not cut him some slack? |
Slack dilutes the value of licenses. The GPL is quite clear on responsibilities.
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#132170 - tepples - Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:52 am
| wintermute wrote: |
| route66 wrote: | | wintermute wrote: | | No contact has been made with the devkitPro team requesting permission |
He doesn't need your permission. |
He does where devkitPro, devkitARM and part of the codebase is concerned. |
Which part of the codebase is proprietary software, that is, software that you haven't already given permission to redistribute in source code form?
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#132264 - jandujar - Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:23 am
PROJECT CANCELLED.
I'm sorry, but I prefer to cancell than continue it. Nobody helps me, it's a lot of work and more people critic.
| Quote: |
The idea of automatic tools to submit newer homebrew/libraries sounds intriguing although I get the impression that Lynx's new project is along these lines. Perhaps you'd like to get involved with what he's doing, I'm pretty sure he'll need some help. |
The only thing I do is to settup a linux machine with an NDS devkitpro environment and make a .procmailrc rules to extract a zip file from a mail, compile it. And submit the homebrew in a folder if all goes well.
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#132287 - socket - Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:29 pm
... this thread made me sick. this dude was trying to help people out and all he got was constantly shot down. what the hell? i mean, gpl this that, jesus christ. ugh. sorry, i just dont get it.
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#132341 - route66 - Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:21 am
| socket wrote: |
| ... this thread made me sick. this dude was trying to help people out and all he got was constantly shot down. what the hell? i mean, gpl this that, jesus christ. ugh. sorry, i just dont get it. |
Agreed.
"He didn't get permission", that's laughable. I guess I missed that provision in the GPL. GPL was designed for this very reason, to prevent someone from controlling it.
The OP can continue this project if he wants, just put the source in the include next time for devKitPro. Some of the other libs (like ndslib) are not GPL and don't have this requirement.
#132342 - route66 - Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:25 am
PS - personally I think the project is a good idea but it's a waste of bandwidth download a full OS. jandujar, instead have you thought of making a module for use in SLAX or other Linux live CDs? SLAX can also be booted off of a USB drive, so it's very portable for people who have to work on public workstations.
#132347 - StoneCypher - Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:24 am
What you two don't seem to understand is that this guy is just another noob talking big and delivering next to nothing. Nobody cares if this thread makes you sick, because for all the preaching you do about this guy who was trying to help, you haven't done a damned thing.
It's unfortunate that he chose a counterproductive way to try to help, but it's better that we lose him than that we suffer the damage. Besides, none of what he's doing is particularly new ground, and not much seems to ever have been achieved. Frankly, this sounds like more of the "I was gonna but nobody did it for me" nonsense we get on IRC so much.
Jandujar: If you have a project, and you expect help from other people to complete it, the project will never be completed. Accept that and move on.
Socket: If you're talking down to the guy who's done nearly this entire project single handed about the relatively tiny amount of work he just cost "the community" by observing the poor fashion in which the work was to be done, please understand that the laughter you hear behind your back is the rest of us watching in amusement as a complete nobody who's responsible for zero tries to preach to this scene's biggest contributor. It's not with you. It's at you. You look like an ass.
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#132350 - tepples - Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:47 am
| route66 wrote: |
| "He didn't get permission", that's laughable. I guess I missed that provision in the GPL. GPL was designed for this very reason, to prevent someone from controlling it. |
I think what wintermute is trying to say is that there are parts of devkitPro that are not free software. I'd still like to know what those parts are, what prevents someone from packaging the software as modules for Debian, Fedora, Puppy, etc.
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#132352 - Lynx - Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:51 am
I think WinterMute is trying to say that this project would cause him to provide more support than he is willing to do. Jandujar doesn't realize that people aren't going to ask him for help when his project has something broke, they are going to ask WinterMute.
Stone: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Seemed like a fairly civilized thread till you chimed in.
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#132354 - StoneCypher - Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:00 am
Lynx: funny how you always have something like that to say, and yet you can't see how the pattern is you. Meantime, Mute was so bothered by this that he was publically talking about abolishing DKP, and now he's thanking me for standing up for him. Choosing between you and him, there's no choice, at all.
So, frankly, I'm not really that worried if your standard-issue trolling is recurring. It's been a long time since your opinion mattered to me, and if you can look at a thread that says things like "this makes me sick" and not see the problem until I speak up, then it becomes pretty clear how sadly colored your observations are by the enormous, permanent chip on your shoulder.
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#132358 - socket - Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:35 am
Yeah, he's been integral to the scene... and sure, I'll commend him for that. But the way he handled this thread was disgusting. Totally counterproductive. I've almost completely given up on a lot of the DS scenesters... For stuff just like this. It's childish and a joke. Every time I start to get interested immaturity screws it up for me.
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#132368 - jandujar - Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:09 am
Peace!!!
I understand the point of view of wintermute.
He told me I'm violating the GPL, so I decided to cancel the project. I could share the devkitpro source to "unviolate" the GPL license, but I don't want to steals other people's job.
The only thing I want is help noob's to begin programmer in DS, packaging the devkitpro and some ds homebrew in the same package.
The only thing I hope, is that wintermute or some other devkitpro/libnds coder put some useful libraries in the distribution, like zlib, libpng, freetype, etc..
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#132373 - Lick - Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:22 am
I don't really have an opinion on this matter, because I'm in no way involved. Though it's hard to not point out that some people really need to admit that they're offending people. They're offending people with incredibly harsh words and when those people respond to that, somehow it's called trolling.
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#132394 - tepples - Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:53 pm
As far as I can tell, devkitARM source code consists of the following: - GCC, Binutils, and Coreutils sources (GPL)
- MSYS patches to Coreutils sources (also GPL)
- Wintermute's patches to GCC and Binutils source (also GPL)
- A bunch of custom tools such as ndstool (mixed free software licenses)
- Red Hat Newlib (mixed permissive licenses)
- libgba and libnds (permissive licenses)
Are there any components I'm missing?
This is not intended as a personal attack. I want this information for my own benefit, not just for the benefit of one specific forker.
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#132418 - alfatreze - Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:25 pm
I've been following this for a bit, and i can understand janjudar's intentions, he only wants to help, so why not lead him to something productive instead of merely bashing him.
Why not create an installer of these libraries along with proper documentation and examples, with tutorials on how to compile and spot errors in compilation. This would seem far more productive to new coders than just being given the baked cake, learn by doing and by fixing. Users would install the standard devkit pro, and then a module with plenty of libs and sources to play with.
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#132423 - jandujar - Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:08 pm
| alfatreze wrote: |
I've been following this for a bit, and i can understand janjudar's intentions, he only wants to help, so why not lead him to something productive instead of merely bashing him.
Why not create an installer of these libraries along with proper documentation and examples, with tutorials on how to compile and spot errors in compilation. This would seem far more productive to new coders than just being given the baked cake, learn by doing and by fixing. Users would install the standard devkit pro, and then a module with plenty of libs and sources to play with. |
This is the best solution.
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#132472 - chishm - Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:32 am
| tepples wrote: |
As far as I can tell, devkitARM source code consists of the following: - GCC, Binutils, and Coreutils sources (GPL)
- MSYS patches to Coreutils sources (also GPL)
- Wintermute's patches to GCC and Binutils source (also GPL)
- A bunch of custom tools such as ndstool (mixed free software licenses)
- Red Hat Newlib (mixed permissive licenses)
- libgba and libnds (permissive licenses)
Are there any components I'm missing?
This is not intended as a personal attack. I want this information for my own benefit, not just for the benefit of one specific forker. |
You forgot libdswifi and libfat.
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#132498 - Puyo - Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:04 am
I thought there is already a good package to help noob`s to start and it`s called - PAlib. And most usefull libraries are already ported. I`ve seen zlib on Troy`s homepage & libpng, libjpeg, libgif is a part of DM`s libpicture (needs recompilation though). There was a topic by OOPMan where he gathered all these libraries. About OS - I don`t really care.
2jandujar: Maybe you could make a page with instructions, examples and post link in the FAQ thread. That would be usefull.
#132539 - Lick - Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:34 pm
OOPMan's list is now kindly hosted by MrShlee at this page: http://dev-scene.com/NDS/DOCliblist
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#132544 - TheMikaus - Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:03 pm
| socket wrote: |
| ... this thread made me sick. this dude was trying to help people out and all he got was constantly shot down. what the hell? i mean, gpl this that, jesus christ. ugh. sorry, i just dont get it. |
| Quote: |
| Yeah, he's been integral to the scene... and sure, I'll commend him for that. But the way he handled this thread was disgusting. Totally counterproductive. I've almost completely given up on a lot of the DS scenesters... For stuff just like this. It's childish and a joke. Every time I start to get interested immaturity screws it up for me. |
I don't think he was shot down so much as informed by Wintermute of the breach of license agreement (to which he agrees to by using the software) and I also feel that Wintermute was merely letting the readers know that the product would not be supported by DKP and the pitfalls that have happened already with a similar effort. This has happened before with another installer and the developer then (just like Jandujar) had understood his concern and the licensing agreement (in the end). It is interesting that others within the community aren't as understanding as the people working on the discussed project.
The childishness of which you speak comes from the lack of understanding from other people (not Wintermute or Jandujar) and how they deal with the situation. It is unfortunate, but luckily doesn't seem to happen that often.
And in the end the creative energy that Jandujar had (as far as the thread reads) is now going to be directed into another project that will also contribute in almost the same manner that he had intended to begin with.
So in the end it appears to be all good right?
(Edited to fix a typo or two)
#132622 - socket - Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:52 am
All good. It's hard to read how things are said in posts sometimes I suppose. I guess the best thing to do would just write more tutorials and stuff. ;)
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#132646 - OOPMan - Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:08 am
Alas, I haven't been keeping it up to date :-(
It is a wiki though, so if anyone knows of any hot new libraries, feel free to add them :-)
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"My boot, your face..." - Attributed to OOPMan, Emperor of Eroticon VI
You can find my NDS homebrew projects here...
#132895 - APL - Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:11 am
| TheMikaus wrote: |
| breach of license agreement (to which he agrees to by using the software) |
Actualy, he agrees to it by distributing the software.
Even that's a simplification, no one cares if you agree, you're simply allowed to distribute it under certain conditions and not allowed to distribute it under certain other conditions.
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-Andy L
http://www.depthchasers.com
#133009 - TheMikaus - Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:11 pm
Ah. Sorry for my misinterpretation.
#133171 - tepples - Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:31 pm
| APL wrote: |
| TheMikaus wrote: | | breach of license agreement (to which he agrees to by using the software) |
Actualy, he agrees to it by distributing the software.
Even that's a simplification, no one cares if you agree, you're simply allowed to distribute it under certain conditions and not allowed to distribute it under certain other conditions. |
Under UK law, you need a copyright license just to copy software from a CD or hard drive into RAM, as the right of ephemeral copies is constructed precisely backwards to the US law. US law (17 USC 117) states that ephemeral copying of computer programs is not infringement; the corresponding UK law allows ephemeral copies of everything except computer programs.
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
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