gbadev.org forum archive

Hi everybody

It's surprisingly one day short of a year ago now I messed around with the Quake source "just for a weekend" and decided to show my findings in this thread:
http://forum.gbadev.org/viewtopic.php?p=107263#107263
...however I didn't expect it to take this long to complete!

The game is now feature-complete, aside from ad-hoc wifi play (which is in the game but disabled) so I figure it's time to release it! I hope you enjoy it - it's taken an insane amount of work and the help of dozens of people to get here.

For full info, visit http://quake.drunkencoders.com

Notable changes:

Downloads from here:
http://quake.drunkencoders.com/downloads_how_to_play.html

The slot-2 build (aka the EXRAM build) is not the silver bullet that many of you hoped it would be. The #1 issue is the poor performance of this memory - when overclocked, this memory seems to have 4-5x the latency of the already-slow internal DS memory and this will of course slow down the game. I've spent many months hiding this latency, but you can still see it on some heavy levels. Quake's random access patterns to memory don't help, neither does the size of the data cache.
Also when using this build I would *highly* recommend using a slot-1 card in conjunction with it where you keep your data files (make sure you patch it with your slot-1 DLDI driver). To know more about the EXRAM build please see http://quake.drunkencoders.com/exram.html
If you're too lazy to read it, don't forget that you can hold 'R' during startup to force detection of your flash card and overclock your RAM :-)

Anyway, a big thanks go out to all the people who have given me technical help, tested the game, donated money, donated hardware or just general support :-D

Legal: I take no credit for the development of Quake, that all goes to the guys at id Software. I also claim no copyright, trademark etc. Again, all work, copyrights, trademarks are owned by them.

Simon
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woohoo, ram

edit: does the exram build include wifi?

Yep. The regular wifi build will enable the wifi and connect to the default access point on startup, the exram build will only connect to the access point on entry to the multiplayer menu.
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so, wold you reccomend NOT using exram unless its neccesary?

Cool release! This was actually the first time I've tried Quake on DS. This brings up lot of memories from the old days :)

so .. does it has music support?

Very nice.
Sweet work on the texture maps and the animations and the touch buttons.. *phew* Loads of good stuff.
Gonna try a few mods and see how they shape up.

Nice one Simon, keep up the good work and all that. Is the networking code still Netquake or quakeworld based?

Hail simon _O_

The only homebrew game I actually play :) Kudos for your hard work.

The normal build gives me this when running from a DS-Xtreme. The exram build works though.

Quote:

2.9 megs of memory available
15.66 kb free, 21.00 kb needed
not enough memory for info section!

Beautiful work, Simon, thanks.

BTW, am i suposed to open any port on my router so it can connect with winquake?
I remember playing some deathmatches when the wi-fi build came out, but i formated my pc after it and reseted the router firmware also.
Now i get "no games found" everytime i try to host a game in PC or when i host it in DS, the PC side keeps "trying" =[

Worth the wait none the less, QuakeDS is fantastic.
What you say if the three builds were merged togheter? Wi-fi initializes if "multiplayer" were chosen, EXRAM would be used if it's said so, or else the game would be the normal one.

And could the bottom screen be customized? With a bitmap background, coordinates limiting the text output and such?

Last edited by MasterMan on Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Well this is a relief, no mega problems! Release a game and go out for the day...score... :-)
Ok,
@devil spawn, no I would not recommend using the exram build unless you actually need it or want to see more particles. For regular Quake I'd use the normal build.

@theli, for some reason I spent a lot of time on the mp3/cd music playback but was too lazy too do the final work to get it properly into the game. Not enough free time or demand I guess! The code is in the game - maybe I could enable it at a later date if I get the bugs worked out? What do you think?

@spike, notice how that demo you couldn't run in hipnotic works now? :-)
Thanks for the help finding that!

@sonny jim, it's netquake, going to qw would most likely be a mega change the code base. Tbh without someone who was very familiar with the code moving from one to the other would be a lot of work. Porting QW would just be a better option IMO!
Btw thanks for the DS, very useful and totally improved productivity! Ad-hoc's still on-going though...

@sunray, that's very interesting. Do you have any other flash cards you could test it with? Which dldi do you use? Does it auto patch or what? It sounds to me like the driver is using some of my precious memory...something I don't think it's allowed to do!

@master man, thanks. If you're just playing on the same network you should just be able to play. The game defaults to port 26000. However playing over the Internet is something else all together. The Quake network protocol requires some kind of IP tunnel or a protocol converter to get it to run across the 'net. This a well-known problem, so have a look for it... But if you're just playing on the same network it should be dead easy to get going.

I did consider merging the three builds together as maintaining three is a bit of a pain. Merging the exram and regular builds wouldn't be too hard, but the wifi would be a problem. If we had some kind of DS DLL system it'd be easy, but as we don't I'd have to rig something up which meant you'd need some kind of wifi DLL with the game and I would get so many support mails if I did this from people who couldn't figure it out!
However when I add ad-hoc adding a fourth build would just be overkill, so maybe a solution needs to be found. Not a problem for 11pm today though :-)
Finally, no you can't customise the bottom screen. I really wanted to jazz up the eight buttons on the subscreen but VRAM is pretty much gone, and plain-ass buttons and a plain background is the best you're gonna get, sorry!
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Hi,
I have a DS-xtrem and exactly the same problem than Sunray.
I have patched it with the dsx dldi (don't know what version)

simonjhall wrote:

I did consider merging the three builds together as maintaining three is a bit of a pain. Merging the exram and regular builds wouldn't be too hard, but the wifi would be a problem. If we had some kind of DS DLL system it'd be easy

DSOrganize DSE/DSP? Moonshell MSP? Libfat DLDI?
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Great release! I think this could be one of the more important releases because I can confirm that Lite models that could not play it before are now compatible. :D

Excellent work!
I did notice it's possible to get randomly stuck though, it usually happens on a slope but can be fixed by jumping.

Suggestion:
Tapping the touchscreen would make a better jump than the L key since I have to remove the stylus from the screen every time I want to jump.

It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. Hell, the announcement that you were working on this thing in the first place is what got me into the whole homebrew thing to begin with.

I still have no idea why id didn't do this to begin with, though. I mean, it was kind of obvious. Oh well, better for us.

the warlock wrote:

I still have no idea why id didn't do this to begin with

Apparently Carmack is thinking of doing his own port to the DS but I read somewhere that it's going to be a balls up for some reason or another:

http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1481

Hm, on the exram build, if the memory is overclocked too high, does it just not work, or will it refuse to the load the 'pak' file (the behaviour I'm getting)?
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Now 10% more Old Man from Zelda 1 than ever before!

oOOoOOOoo, changing host_framerate works! *dances* (This is the first version I bothered trying it with :P)

Sooo many QuakeDS-specific TC's in mind for this build if I wasn't so modding-lazy :/

simonjhall wrote:

@theli, for some reason I spent a lot of time on the mp3/cd music playback but was too lazy too do the final work to get it properly into the game. Not enough free time or demand I guess! The code is in the game - maybe I could enable it at a later date if I get the bugs worked out? What do you think?

strange enough, music was the main reason i waited for this release :)
i'm not saying release is bad - it's great, thanks for your work :)
but music in campaign would be great :D

Excellent job, have been looking forward to this ever since I started using homebrew.

Now that you've done most of the things in Quake, are you considering Quake 2? Even at a lower framerate, I think that would be nice.

Awesome! Just grabbed the regular and EXRAM builds, and I'm liking what I see! Thought I'd point out, though, in the EXRAM build models seem to randomly disappear and reappear, not turn white but just become totally invisible. Just thought I'd let you know:)

@sunray and gorthe, someone else has had a problem like this on dcemu and it seems to a problem with the qdsopts.txt file they had. I'm waiting for them to reply, but apparently the game ran fine when they hold down L during the fat init step (this disables qdsopts.txt). Could you try this and tell me if you have any luck?

@creebo, what was the matter on the lites that couldn't play it before? There's been an obscure bug that I got rid of that caused it to lock up on a few DS' for no reason...could be that!

@lazy1, I did spend quite some time diagnosing the 'getting stuck in stuff' problem as it is annoying when it happens. I'm afraid that this is (as we guessed) a problem with me going to fixed-point maths, and as a result sometimes the physics ends up in a place it wasn't expecting to!

@9th sage, once you change the settings for your RAM, it will test it to confirm that that it works correctly (and it will print the size of the memory that has been found - you need to confirm that it's got it correct). If it can read you RAM (ie your RAM can handle the 'clock for at least ten seconds) the game will then progress. If in fact you can't actually clock it that high, you'll get weirdo errors.
Btw just so people know, we haven't found one supercard yet that can be overclocked.

@jlsoft, what does host_framerate do <looks embarassed for not knowing>

@username, you'll get this model disappearing lark on the other ones too, it's just more apparent on the exram version since quite often you'll be running really big mods. The DS can only draw so many triangles and vertices in a frame, and when you go over this (ie there are loads of monsters on the screen) stuff will start to disappear. If you look on the console there should be some letters that appear on the far-right of the bottom row when this happens. Get a 'V' and that means the GPU is out of vertex memory, get a 'P' and it's out of polygon memory.
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when i hold down L, it freeze at the line
2.9 megs of memory available

And the "X", "+" at the bottom left is no longer animated.

Awesome. Does the character in the top left keep flickering though?
Do you actually have a file named qdsopts.txt in the root of your flash card? If it's there, can you delete it? (or at least keep a copy to send to me)
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Looks great and feels much more fluid framerate-wise!
Great work.

I'm experiencing the "getting stuck" bug in places too, and I couldn't jump to fix it. Good luck on finding the physics bug!

Since QuakeDS is pretty much perfect (rendering and performance-wise), what would you be working on for the next release?
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dualscreenman wrote:

What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs.

tepples wrote:

"Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!"

Just adding my props for this piece of hard work - many many thanks.

Do you think there is any chance of getting online play to work across a WAN as opposed to Local?

Team Fortress on my DS and I'd wet my pants!

simonjhall wrote:

Awesome. Does the character in the top left keep flickering though?
Do you actually have a file named qdsopts.txt in the root of your flash card? If it's there, can you delete it? (or at least keep a copy to send to me)

Thank you for paying attention of my problem

If you are talking about the white and blue character which replace the "Q" of "quake". I never see it doing anything, pressing L or not.

I can't find qdsopts.txt. Is it supposed to be created ?

My linker is the 4Gb version with the firmware 1.1.0 (the last is 1.1.2, but there are many problems with it)

simonjhall, host_framerate is usually used to get a cheap & easy slow-motion effect.

In the console, you can set host_framerate to a value below 0.05, and all the gameplay is slower...set it higher, and everything is faster. Setting it back to 0 (or 0.05 seems right) is normal speed.

A mod could alter it for things like the standard 'slow down time' element (set the game speed to 1/4th normal, but modify the Player's movement/firing/etc rate 400%, etc), or set it -really- low to have a pseudo-freezeframe to highlight an event, like a player getting gibbed/whatever. :)

On another topic, there's no easy way to get the 'wireframe' setting (I'm guessing it's the DS' built-in cartoon outlining ability) to only affect models and -not- the actual level, right? :)

[EDIT: Also, I noticed a limitation with the on-screen keyboard and quick touch buttons...you can't hold them down, they always get 'tapped'. The physical DS buttons are fine, though. For example, you can't really bind a +toggle alias to them, because they're released right after. Add the following to an autoexec.cfg:

alias +testtest "echo Button down!"
alias -testtest "echo Button up!"
bind Z +testtest
bind AUX4 +testtest
bind "PAD B" +testtest

...and it shows how the touchscreen controls don't act the same as the buttons.

Is this the intended behavior? :)]

@gorth, don't worry about the qdsopts file. This file allows you to simulate the PC Quake's command line. If it's not there then don't worry. Regarding your problem, tbh I have no idea! Did you try any of the previous versions?
Here's a link to the previous version:
http://quake.drunkencoders.com/downloads/quakeds_290407_pre2.zip
Btw do you patch the binary or does your flash card do it automatically? I've heard that some of these dldi auto-patchers can give funny results...

@jlsoft, yeah, they just do taps. The OSK was originally designed for entering your network settings and choosing your unit in Team Fortress. Never seen a need for key hold/up/down events :-)

And no, I'm afraid there's no way to see alias models in wireframe mode - only brush models. It was just a bit of joke functionality that I dropped in and for some reason didn't get rid of it! Adding the wireframe option into the alias model renderer would probably slow down the game a bit too much.

@katch, you know you CAN play TF, right? That was the reason I added the keyboard into the game six months ago! It plays great, but the music doesn't play since it's wav audio, and there's a limit on the size of the files it can play.
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It's the same way with pre2.
The white and blue character at top left don't do anything.
The last line is :"3.0 megs of memory available"

I patch manually my file.

simonjhall wrote:

@katch, you know you CAN play TF, right? That was the reason I added the keyboard into the game six months ago! It plays great, but the music doesn't play since it's wav audio, and there's a limit on the size of the files it can play.

Yes, but if I understand correctly it is still not possible to play across the internet right? Only on a local server attached to your router... or am I mistaken?

Ok sorry, it works for me now.

It was a problem with my dldi patch.
I don't know what was wrong, but i redownload the patcher and the .dldi and it works fine now...

Hi Simon
great work and you release the new version at the moment i though : when we'll get a new build of quake ds.
Just one question what's the average framerate of the ds version and will the mp3 sound will drop performance ?
One more time
thanks for your hard work.

Katch wrote:

Yes, but if I understand correctly it is still not possible to play across the internet right? Only on a local server attached to your router... or am I mistaken?

I've not actually tried any of the networking code but afaik you should be able to play on pretty much any internet quake server as long as it supports Netquake code rather than Quakeworld. Adhoc (ie DS -> DS with no router) is currently not supported

This is excellent.
I really need to find my Quake disc so I can play the full version rather than shareware.

Know what? I just got to boot The Ascession of Vigil in the EXRAM build.
'Course it doesn't work, RenegadeC optimized it for DarkPlaces engine and it expends lots of polycount, texture size and such. Infact, it load till the "new game" screen, even plays the BGM. But away reloads this screen when i choose to start a game. If i try the "map" cvar, i can select maps.
The castle.bsp map i did doesn't work, because "sky" is not a valid entity (RenegadeC did it). Dungeon.bsp loads, texturizes the world entity, but not the player and custom models. Locks saying texture size exceeds the cache limit.

I'll try to find some earlyer builds when this mod called "Medieval" and were aimed for Quake on Dreamcast (10MB heap only).

BTW, how can i bind A button to toggle OSK on/off?

i don't know...

I mean the fire and such looks good but i don't think i can live without my DS-specific BBE or "Big Beige Explosions" :P

THANKS a bunch Simon for the hours of replay value you have given this 11 y/o game

Hardware
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@MasterMind

"it can be overlaid on the subscreen by binding a button to the 'osk' command. To bind the button, either go to the key configurations menu and set up 'on screen keyb' (about half way down) or just add a line like bind "PAD A" "osk" to your config.cfg file"
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Excellent work!

Normal build works great, haven't had the chance to test the exram build yet though.

A question: why the need for a separate "normal" build and a WiFi build? Are things missing from the latter that are on the former?

A whopping 250k. Just by reducing the heap from 2.95MB to 2.90MB can make some levels unplayable, hence the need for the separate build. The wifi takes a lot of memory.

http://quake.drunkencoders.com/exram.html
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Very impressive, Simon! This runs great for me, now, even with the EXRAM build.
Malice is running really well, although the cutscenes have a bit too much detail for this system. Actual gameplay hasn't given me trouble yet.
(Now someone needs to port Half-Life to the Quake engine!)

Is there a particular Quake network tunneller thing that will work here? I'm anxious to try Team Fortress.
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lord_hardware wrote:

@MasterMind

"it can be overlaid on the subscreen by binding a button to the 'osk' command. To bind the button, either go to the key configurations menu and set up 'on screen keyb' (about half way down) or just add a line like bind "PAD A" "osk" to your config.cfg file"

Thanks, i misunderstood it.
Did what you said and A cicles OSK > aux buttons > normal, but i want the "toggle console", not only OSK. I don't see what i type in it =[

The command is 'toggleconsole'. This'll turn on the console (check the top line for the blinking cursor) and'll bring up the OSK in whatever form it was left in.

Btw for a Quake tunnel, some routers support the protocol but I'd imagine most don't. Have a lookie online for 'quake udp tunnel' or something as it's a well-known problem. Or you could make a VPN and play over that...
Tbh I don't think it'd be too hard for me to change the protocol so that you play over the Internet but that'd mean if you were to play against a PC I'd have to make you an executable for that PC too...
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Why would the PC need an executable that differs from the Shareware or Retail Quake? I had a server running on my Local network on my Laptop and could join it from my NDS fine.

The only thing I can't get to work is if I move the server onto a different external IP and try connecting = no beans. Also can't connect to any other active netquake servers that I've looked at. I assume this is a current limitation of the netcode.

That's what I mean. If I change the protocol to overcome its limitations I'd have to change every other machine that it was playing against.
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Firstly, Simon, thanks for the heads up. "toggleconsole" works like a charm.

Now, there's any way the console text does not overlay the keyboard? When the screen has many text, it cover the keyboard an gets hard to see.
Maybe a _ds_console_coords "25 1 10 231" variable, enclosing the console buffer in a box above the keyborad and betwen the AUX* keys.

And i issued the console command "screenshot" and took some quake**.pcx screenshots. But there's no PCX viewer on DS, and in computer i found the PCXs were all black. I have two thoughts, make it save JPEGs or PNGs (some engines do it already), if it doesn't require valious VRAM ou processing power (maybe the game could pause while savinng sshots). Or even kill this whole code if it would save any ressource for you.

hey simon.
I get the following error:

Starting up
FAT init...ok

passed fp tests!
using default command line.
init ARM7...done
ARM7 is initialised
Host_init, memory base at 0x021050c0
2.9 megs of memory available
15.66 kb free, 21.00 kb needed
not enough memory for info section!

If I hold the left shoulder at FAT init, all goes well. it does the same whether there is a QDSOPTS.txt or not. same error either way. but as I says, all goes well if I opt out of the .txt file.

I'm using the new build (neither wifi nor exram, haven't tried those yet) in an r4 and a DS lite.

I love your work. ever many thanyous.
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That's WEIRD. Can I send you some test builds later? I really wanna fix this memory thing.
@masterman, yeah I just pulled numbers out of a hat for the console to make it look cool :-)
Y'know that if you use the arrow keys you can move the console round on the subscreen? Maybe that helps.
Also, no there's no screenshot functionality. Tbh I thought I removed those functions! But nah, I'd haven't got the VRAM spare to do it - sorry!
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btw, simon, so what's about moving everything into /quake so that user won't mess with baseq1 and mods residing in root? :(
also this would allow a simple mod launcher (by enumerating directories in /quake)

I did spend quite some time toying with the idea after it was mentioned before. It's no work on my part (in fact I'm sure *you* can do it from the qdsopts file with -basedir) but I just didn't want endless support emails from people who couldn't figure it out! The new version is literally a drop-in replacement for pre2, so I wanted to give people the minimum hassle.
Plus I wanted to use calcprogrammer's youtube video which shows how to install pre2 :-)
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simonjhall wrote:

(in fact I'm sure *you* can do it from the qdsopts file with -basedir)

oh! i completely forgot about this :)
thanks.

btw .. just tried wireframe overlay and i liked the look it gave .. (somewhat cartoonish) .. and one idea came into my mind ...

is it possible to use built-in cel shading without big impact on framerate?

Excelent, excelent stuff.

sonny_jim wrote:

the warlock wrote:

I still have no idea why id didn't do this to begin with

Apparently Carmack is thinking of doing his own port to the DS but I read somewhere that it's going to be a balls up for some reason or another:

http://www.armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1481

Well, previously he made comments that he thought touchscreen was no good for FPS, and that any DS game would be a D-Pad based thing.

I hope that session of Metroid has slapped him to his sense's.
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had anyone any success on connecting to some public netquake servers?

and had anyone succes in connecting DarkPlaces (the only engine i have) with quakeds? ( i set sv_protovolname to "quake" but still no luck :( )

theli wrote:

had anyone any success on connecting to some public netquake servers?

and had anyone succes in connecting DarkPlaces (the only engine i have) with quakeds? ( i set sv_protovolname to "quake" but still no luck :( )

I did. But never hosting in DP and DS as client.
I host in DS and connect in DP with "connect <DS_IP>". But it causes DP to runs choppy.

Tockit wrote:

hey simon.
I get the following error:

Starting up
FAT init...ok

passed fp tests!
using default command line.
init ARM7...done
ARM7 is initialised
Host_init, memory base at 0x021050c0
2.9 megs of memory available
15.66 kb free, 21.00 kb needed
not enough memory for info section!

If I hold the left shoulder at FAT init, all goes well. it does the same whether there is a QDSOPTS.txt or not. same error either way. but as I says, all goes well if I opt out of the .txt file.

I'm using the new build (neither wifi nor exram, haven't tried those yet) in an r4 and a DS lite.

I love your work. ever many thanyous.

I had the same output yesterday when I tested the normal build on my R4.

The ex-ram build worked fine, but the normal build displayed that output...
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Hmm, I believe I'm having memory-related issues with the normal build too.

Yesterday I was playing through episode 3, and beat Satan's Dark Delight and moves on the the Air Tubes level. About half-way through I run into some serious lag, (1.5 fps) and end up blowing myself up since I had just gotten the Quad damage during the slow spree.

So I go back and try to do the level again. The slowdown occurs earlier now, but I found the new threshold for where it gets slow and save the level.

I turn my DS off and on again and load that save file. But it doesn't load. At the point where it says "loading models and lightmaps" or whatever, it's complaining about not having enough RAM.

So I'm guessing that the slowdown problem was Quake streaming data off the disk and into memory so frequently that massive slowdowns occurred.
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dualscreenman wrote:

What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs.

tepples wrote:

"Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!"

Yeah the RAM is pretty low on that level. If it goes that slow then it's probably swapping out to disk - something we spent quite a long time getting rid of...
I'll have a look when I next get the code out (maybe this weekend). In the mean time, could you send me the save?

Btw what's the texturing like on that level? That level uses an excessive amount of non-power-of-two textures but it should look fine now...(I hope!)
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Sure thing, it's in the mail.

I'm not quite sure what a non power of two texture is, but I do see some textures that and areas of color with black lines going through them. It's sorta garbled looking, and I'm guessing they aren't supposed to look like that.

I guess you can see for yourself with the save. :)
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dualscreenman wrote:

What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs.

tepples wrote:

"Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!"

oh, I've been meaning to bring this up, but it's seemingly mundane.

I seem to remember the boss on episode 1 to require the lightning bolt pass through him 3 times before you win. in the DS version, it seems he goes down after a mere... well. once.

really easy boss either way, but it's just slightly noteworthy. :)
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Tockit wrote:

oh, I've been meaning to bring this up, but it's seemingly mundane.

I seem to remember the boss on episode 1 to require the lightning bolt pass through him 3 times before you win. in the DS version, it seems he goes down after a mere... well. once.

really easy boss either way, but it's just slightly noteworthy. :)

Maybe it depends on the skill level?
I haven't played that map in a while but I don't remember it taking 3 on easy.

Side note:
Since the map sources of the full Quake1 game have been released what is the legality of modifying them to be more DS friendly and re-releasing them?
Same with textures, would it help to reduce their size by half?

Sounds to me like it's on easy! I've got that nine-button-press thing down to a tee!
And I have no idea about what you can do with the models and maps. Although I'd never make it a requirement that you need 'DS-modded' maps to play! Shipping a pre-processing tool with the game would just be a nightmare - I'm getting mails from people who can't even follow those dldi tutorials! There's a youtube installation video on the web page for a reason!
Oh and textures are already at half-res ;-)
Offline texture compression would be nice though.
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@Lazy1:
Uhm... could you please show us the place where you read, or got informed that, anything (apart from the engine's source code) from Quake was released for free? AFAIK, id's still selling Quake... you can actually check that at id's web site.

It hasn't been released for free, but the sources to all of the maps were released by their author.

http://rome.ro/2006/10/quake-map-sources-released.html

I thought the DS supported compressed textures, is it the lack of a compressor why it's not being used?

svn...? :)

Just noticed this - kusma, did you want to have a go? ;-)
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Hi simon, you did a great job.

I noticed a few strange things... I use a M3Perfect SD, i've tested my ram using memtestArm as you sugest, i have no problem running it at 2.1, but with dsquake i can only use the middle ram setting, the highest one failed to load the pak files... is it really a memory issue?
I can also confirm that using the save function on a slot2 device don't work with the exram build... that's annoying but already known and anounced, is it planed to correct that?

two last question...
- know some good/fun quake server we could use?
- still working one quake 1 or continuing quake 2? :)

Hmm...saving should work ok with the M3. I don't personally have an M3, but saving does work with the Supercard and I have done a bit of testing with the M3 (which I found was a lot harder to save with). I'll have a look again if you like. I would still recommend playing with a card in the top slot instead when using the exram build.
Are you just playing regular Quake or a mod? If you're just playing regular Quake use the 'normal' build - the framerate will be a lot better and you'll also be able to save etc. There is no need to use the exram build if you're just playing normal Quake.

I dunno about the RAM timings. A few potential answers:
- I may not be using the same timings that tepples uses. My 'top timing' may not be equivalent to his (although it probably is)
- if you're using the EXRAM build and have no slot-1 file system then the card has to switch between RAM mode and disk mode hundreds (thousands?) of times and there's a chance that your card can't hack it at that speed. I do have doubts that these cards are designed to switch back and forth that many times...
- although memtestARM is designed to find these memory-breaking conditions, it is a synthetic test whereas Quake is a bit more real-world and detects problems pretty well ;-)
tepples, what do you think?

Btw, no there's gonna be no Quake2 and Quake1 has pretty much finished...
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simon: Yeah, I guess I'd be able to free up some time (=get my lazy ass off the sofa) to take a look at some stuff again. If you need any assistance, that is. I still believe that lightmapping and mipmapping should be possible (and potentially faster and require less memory than always loading mip 1). I haven't tried the latest release yet, but if the white polygons-while-loading-textures "issue" is still there, I also think it would be quite easy to hide that a bit (avarage all pixels in each texture while loading the level - thus giving an approximate polygon color and storing only this in memory). I guess I need to get me one of those Nintendo USB-thingies to debug on-target, though. Does quake work in any of the emulators?

simonjhall wrote:

Hmm...saving should work ok with the M3. I don't personally have an M3, but saving does work with the Supercard and I have done a bit of testing with the M3 (which I found was a lot harder to save with). I'll have a look again if you like. I would still recommend playing with a card in the top slot instead when using the exram build.
Are you just playing regular Quake or a mod? If you're just playing regular Quake use the 'normal' build - the framerate will be a lot better and you'll also be able to save etc. There is no need to use the exram build if you're just playing normal Quake.

I dunno about the RAM timings. A few potential answers:
- I may not be using the same timings that tepples uses. My 'top timing' may not be equivalent to his (although it probably is)
- if you're using the EXRAM build and have no slot-1 file system then the card has to switch between RAM mode and disk mode hundreds (thousands?) of times and there's a chance that your card can't hack it at that speed. I do have doubts that these cards are designed to switch back and forth that many times...
- although memtestARM is designed to find these memory-breaking conditions, it is a synthetic test whereas Quake is a bit more real-world and detects problems pretty well ;-)
tepples, what do you think?

Btw, no there's gonna be no Quake2 and Quake1 has pretty much finished...

tested again, and save function failed everytime at slow and medium ram speed alike... now i'm only using a M3Perfect and a passcard, so no file system on slot1. does that mean that to run quake exram I need either to flash my DS to allow boots in DS mode on the slot2 and find a slot1 rampack(Ds browser pack for example) or find a slot1 flash pack like a M3 simply R4 or product like that to be able to use exram and save?
also when using the higher ram speed, quake is able to initialise memory, what fail is the access to the pak file it seems... is it related to the fact that i load the file and use ram of the slot2 device?

finally yes actually i'm only using regular quake files and i know that the regular version will perform better, but i'm looking forward to use mods...

ps: doh for quake 2, I was really hoping to see that, the video looks so great :) was secretly hoping to see a port of sin to your quake2 engine too :)

I don't weep for Quake 2. I'm extraordinarily happy with QuakeDS.

Thanks much, simonjhall!

Hey Simon, as a big fan of your work, could you let us know how far you got with Quake 2, since it will never be released?

Was the game playable? How much memory did it end up needing to run? Did much of your work on Quake 1 help with the Quake 2 port at all? Is the DS 3D Hardware too slow too handle the Q2 engine?

I'd love to read anything you could post about your experiences and work on the work you did on it.

Thanks for the work you've done! It's been an exciting ride. I remember first reading your Quake for DS port thread more than a year ago and not being able to keep my eyes off it.

@elwing, I will sort out this save stuff. It's just that I'm in crunch time at work and it's hard to motivate myself to code at home after ten hours of doing it at work :-(

The rest, thanks guys! I too was like WOW when I originally saw those DSQuake videos from John Gillotte a year or so ago and wanted to have a go at playing it. However after spending so much time porting the game, I've lost any love that I have for it! I don't want to kill Q2 too! Plus it took such a large chunk of my time getting it to the state it's in, I just couldn't do that again. I'd love to see the results but I think it's time for some new hobbies :-)

Interested in how Q2 is? I'm *thinking* of releasing a playable 'demo' around Christmas to demonstrate how much/little grunt the DS has and to show those PSP naysayers that homebrew on the DS can't be ignored. Watch out.
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Hint: [url=http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990207&mode=classic]?[/url] was ported to Nintendo 64, though the Expansion Pak was needed for full lighting support.
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simonjhall wrote:

Interested in how Q2 is? I'm *thinking* of releasing a playable 'demo' around Christmas to demonstrate how much/little grunt the DS has and to show those PSP naysayers that homebrew on the DS can't be ignored.

Surely they'll just say that there's no full speed Snes/Genesis emulation on the DS then go back to playing around with their firmware....

;-p

If you get dragged into an emulator urination match, ask the PSP fans how well their favorite emulator handles Mario Paint, Lemmings 2, Civilization, and other Super NES games that use the Super NES Mouse accessory compared to SNEmulDS. Then show them Colors!.
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Hi. this is awsome. great work. how can i enter cheat codes during gameplay?

Thanks, G :-)
Pull up the console (either bind a button to do this, or go to the menu->options->console) then type in whatchu want by touching the keys on the screen. All Quake cheats should work.
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Hi. When I try to save it hangs at saving lighting settings. I'm using a FAT32 formatted R4 microSD in slot 1 and the NDS ram expansion in slot 2 with the external RAM QUake build. Anyone else unable to save?

sorry, i see thats a known issue with the exram build and R4. I'll try the normal build.

rolling_glue wrote:

Hi. When I try to save it hangs at saving lighting settings. I'm using a FAT32 formatted R4 microSD in slot 1 and the NDS ram expansion in slot 2 with the external RAM QUake build. Anyone else unable to save?

hum, i wasn't as precise in my description, but the crash i have while saving using only a M3Perfect and a passkey is exactly the same

What's the last message - is it 'writing light styles'?
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simonjhall wrote:

What's the last message - is it 'writing light styles'?

'writing light styles...'

yes

yes thats the last message. it works fine with the non exram build though.

Ok, that's about a one second fix. It's interesting how it works on some cards but not others though... Could be a data cache thing.
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simonjhall wrote:

Ok, that's about a one second fix. It's interesting how it works on some cards but not others though... Could be a data cache thing.

that's great, you're awesome...

lol now we'll need an other 3dspy-like app to configure wifi, find online game and configure the config file to load the correct mod to have the best homebrew ever :)

elwing wrote:

simonjhall wrote:

Ok, that's about a one second fix. It's interesting how it works on some cards but not others though... Could be a data cache thing.

that's great, you're awesome...

lol now we'll need an other 3dspy-like app to configure wifi, find online game and configure the config file to load the correct mod to have the best homebrew ever :)

i thought about something like such launcher... writing to qdsopts and launching through chishm's loader .... and retrieving servers' parameters using qstat ....
though i hadn't much success playing on the internet using dsquake :(
maybe i'll try later again...
btw, anyone can recommend some internet server he had success connecting dsquake with?

theli wrote:

btw, anyone can recommend some internet server he had success connecting dsquake with?

If your behind a NAT, (which on wireless, you almost always are) then you won't be able to connect to any internet servers unless you do some tricky tunneling that's beyond my current knowledge. And if you were able to connect to one, then the latency would either bring you back to the old days, or make you understand the meaning behind the acronym "HPB".
Most Quake servers online nowadays are QuakeWorld servers, QW being a multiplayer only release of Quake done about a year later that improved greatly on the network code by means of client-side prediction. Thus lag was reduced greatly. (Though it was still at least .2 seconds if you were on a modem :P) The old version is now referred to as "NetQuake" *shrugs*. And there's still a few running here and there...
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Original DS Phat obtained on day of release + flashme v7
Supercard: miniSD, Kingston 1GB, Kingston 2GB
Ralink chipset PCI NIC

simonjhall wrote:

Interested in how Q2 is? I'm *thinking* of releasing a playable 'demo' around Christmas to demonstrate how much/little grunt the DS has and to show those PSP naysayers that homebrew on the DS can't be ignored. Watch out.

Just wondering, have you decided if you're going to make it? :)

I hadn't even thought about it tbh! I'm very busy at the moment (all I have done for the last month or two is eat sleep commute and program) so I definately can't think about it for another couple of weeks. But I am also enjoying this break from homebrew :-)
Anyway I wouldn't get too excited - half of the time I put into Quake 1 was 'the little things', and I certainly wouldn't be doing that with Q2. So expect long load times, sub-par frame rates, crashes, dodgy menus, no sound, non-playable - that sort of thing!
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I have a Games n Music card, and this version locks up as compared to version 2.0. I could change settings then, now it freezes.

Simon, what an awesome job you've done. Been playing through 1? episode yesterday and today, and I've had a blast.
I am wondering, which parts of the code still needs to be optimized? Is there anything that needs to be handoptimized in ASM, maybe?
It would be nice if you could make a list of functions and areas which are quickly ported, and which are sort of timing critical.
I notice that the game update code takes a lot of time to excecute, is this because of QuakeC and all the floats the game loop? Or is this already handled?

Maybe, doing a specially tailored progs.dat with fixed point maths for the DS would be a massive speed increase. I used to be in the Quake modding scene "back in the days", so maybe I could look into that.

EDIT: Maybe a progs.dat compiled with FrikQCC would be faster?

Wotcha. Glad you're enjoying the game :-)

Regarding "what's left to be optimised", do you mean what do I intend to optimise, or what actually needs something doing? I don't intend to improve the speed any more, since I spent many months doing this. The problem was that the tools I wrote to profile the program were too granular - I can get a list of all the functions in the program and how long each took to run (num calls, average time spent etc) but nothing finer than that. This made pinning down what the slow stuff was quite hard.
Probably the slowest thing is the route finding / line of sight code. It's called an excessive amount of times per frame and although individual calls are quite quick, it really multiplies up! Since I couldn't figure out what the bottleneck in this function was (due to the lack of per-line profiling) I didn't want to re-write it in assembler.

Optimised progs would definately help, or modified progs which call the route finding stuff less would be good. I think the function's called 'traceline' or something in QuakeC. Oh and yes the whole VM is still in floating point, and that chews 10ms/frame on average :-)
...that would'ha taken months to change to fixed point, and I just couldn't be arsed ;-)

So...would you wanna have a go with this? I'll help out if I can, but I don't really know too much about QuakeC!
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I'm doing research now, I think there's a lot to gain from optimizing the QC interpreter speed-wise. And, there's some profiling code that could easely be removed too.

There's several ways of doing it. JIT would definetly be the fastest, but it would take a good bit of RAM (I guess). The bytecode format in QuakeC has some similarities to THUMB, so maybe it wouldn't be that hard to do a JIT interpretation of progs.dat at bootup, but it would still take some time for me to get it done.
This could maybe even lead to EXRAM builds being the fastests, if JIT required more RAM than the DS has. I don't have any devkit with EXRAM to test it out with, though.

Another way would be handoptimizing progs.dat for fixed point, write a special QC compiler, and a change the interpreter, but we wouldn't want to break the compatibility for network play. Would still be tempting for singleplayer stuff. There are also some optimizations to be made on how the QC interpreter loads and stores values.

I have some friends at www.inside3d.com, a great Quake modding community, who will lend me a hand. But I won't have any results before january or february 2008, earliest.

I'll let you know when I'm starting seriously.

Hmm, actually, nothing would keep us from precompiling the progs.dat into ARM code and store it in the ROM. It's a lot faster to read from ROM than EXRAM, right?

Lord Graga wrote:

Hmm, actually, nothing would keep us from precompiling the progs.dat into ARM code and store it in the ROM. It's a lot faster to read from ROM than EXRAM, right?

What kind of "ROM" are you talking about? The DS has no "ROM" in the GBA sense. There are only flash, RAM, and EXRAM. Or do you mean store it in the .nds file?
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Ah, sorry, I'm not that up to date with the DS' hardware at the moment. I was refering to the flash. The question still stands, though.

Lord Graga wrote:

Ah, sorry, I'm not that up to date with the DS' hardware at the moment. I was refering to the flash. The question still stands, though.

In that case, I think the answer to your question is "Hell no, dog!"

Pretend that flash on the DS is like a disk.
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Seems like the only viable thing for a non-EXRAM build is an optimized progs.dat with an optimized interpreter, and a preinterpreted progs.dat for EXRAM builds. I'll be going for the first.

I've had a quick peek at the VM-implementation, and I see some room for improvement, especially in the vector-math area.

Sorry if this has been answered, but I haven't seen a solution so far...

Has anyone gotten QuakeDS release 3 working with an M3 DS Real (or G6)? It seems to randomly either freeze on FAT Init or give the error message about the DLDI patch being wrong/etc.

- Yes it's properly patched
- Yes, the required files are where they need to be/etc

I got an M3 DS Real (using 'firmware' E13 right now) to replace my R4DS that died, and so far this release is the only homebrew I've ran into that doesn't work that worked previously on the R4 :(

just a simple question, are you using the regular or the EXRAM version? 'cause the EXRAM version will run only if you have a slot-2 caridge that provide ram...

The problem happens with both normal and ExRAM vers (I have a 3in1 & SuperCard CF for ExRAM vers).

It's not a configuration problem as far as I can tell...the exact same setup (except for the DLDI patch) worked on other cards, that's why I'm hoping someone with an M3 DS Real can confirm the same problem, or tell me how they got it working, since it's not starting in the normal way :)

JLsoft wrote:

The problem happens with both normal and ExRAM vers (I have a 3in1 & SuperCard CF for ExRAM vers).

It's not a configuration problem as far as I can tell...the exact same setup (except for the DLDI patch) worked on other cards, that's why I'm hoping someone with an M3 DS Real can confirm the same problem, or tell me how they got it working, since it's not starting in the normal way :)

can't help, only owning 2passcard3 and 1M3 perfect microSD 1M3 perfect lite, and i've no problem with those...(except the save using exram build) guess you'll have to wait for a M3Real user or for simon himself...

No idea on that card, sorry. What is the *last* message that you see on the screen when it hangs? If you never get the 'ok' after 'fat init' then that means the dldi initialisation is fux0r3d.
Does you card have an auto-patch option? If it does, try turning it off and doing it the proper way...

Donation? ;-)
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...annnnnd, never mind.

Kernel update that just came out (along with fresh QDS binaries) fixed it...looks like it was weirdness in the base DLDI driver for the cart, since the new one is 3K larger. :P

Time to mess around :D

Hi. Anybody else get a dramatic slowdown, then lockup during gameplay? I'm using the non exram vers with an R4 slot-1 card. I think I dont get it if I use the exram version, but then it hangs when I try to save a game.

Hi. Is there a fix for the write hangs (e.g. save game) when using an R4DS slot-1 card?

since the quake port uses a .pak file does that mean i could download a demo of quake II and use that .pak file?
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Sega Genesis games are stored in .bin files. Game Boy Advance games are stored in .gba files that are also sometimes called .bin files. But that doesn't mean you can use an emulator for one to run games for the other.

You can't use a Game Boy Advance emulator to run GrabIt scripts, nor can you use GrabIt to run a Game Boy Advance game.

You can't use a gbfs for TOD with Luminesweeper, or vice versa.

Likewise, a .pak for id Tech 2.1 (Quake 2) is likely not to work on id Tech 2.0 (Quake 1). For one thing, Quake 1 uses an interpreted "QuakeC" for game logic, while Quake 2 uses native object code modules.
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The Lego Rock Raiders PC Game even used .pak files. Would you think I would be able to use those in Quake DS? Nope. The filetypes probably share nothing in common with each other except using the same file extension.
_________________

dualscreenman wrote:

What about Gaim DS? Gaim pretty much has support for all IM programs.

tepples wrote:

"Goshdammit, the DS is not a Gaim-boy! It's a third pillar!"

These guys have answered it pretty well :-)
But to clarify, no - you can't. The game is different and thus must be recoded for the DS from scratch. I'm currently working out the bugs with my testers in that game, but I'm having trouble finding the time to work on it...
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im gonna try it anyway
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Hahaha, go for it.

It'd be good to hear how you get on.
<I thought of so many more interesting comments, but they were all far too sarcastic>
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I'm guessing that FOV not working is a limitation of the port, and not a bug, right? :)

I can't remember if I disabled access to it or not...I think I did?
Either way you have no way of controlling the fov of the actual rendering, short of recompiling the game. The fov cvar will only control the bsp/model culling fov (again, assuming I've not disabled it)

EDIT: which reminds me - I must lock out the Q2 one!
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simonjhall wrote:

EDIT: which reminds me - I must lock out the Q2 one!

not a problem until our beta version will have an osk :)

@elwing

Well y'can change parameters in the config.cfg file in your baseq2, you know...
But the OSK and touch buttons are next on the list, and I was thinking about what I'll need to do whilst in the shower this morning! Save game support (both maunal and auto saves)) is now in btw.
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simonjhall wrote:

Well y'can change parameters in the config.cfg file in your baseq2, you know...

I know, but I'm sometime kinda lazy, lol

simonjhall wrote:

Save game support (both maunal and auto saves)) is now in btw.

WOOOT, waiting for a new version to crash

Hey!

I recently downloaded the engine's source code at http://quake.drunkencoders.com/downloads/quakeds_source_271007_r3.zip . I would like to understand the edicts problem and, if it is what I think it is, apply 2 or 3 changes I've been keeping on my mind about it. Thing is, the sources do not look like they were arranged as a common NDS devkitARM project.

Do you have some instructions handy for compiling and then getting an executable for this engine?

Thanks!

Edicts problem?
Anyway, no I've never used any of the DKA project stuff. The makefile used with QDS is just a retrofitted svga linux makefile and I always regret never rolling my own! First thing I did with Q2 :-)

Anyway, I use cygwin so if you don't then you may want to wiggle the paths and drop the /cygdrive stuff. It's also built with DKA r20 and won't compile with r21. To compile, type make build_debug at the prompt and it should eventually spit out your nds and copy it to disk! (drive L:)

There may be references to libraries that you don't have (eg my wireless debugger) so feel free to just pull 'em out...

Let me know how you get on.
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Yeah, the edicts problem. Remember?

moncho_again wrote:

Hey!
Just downloaded quakeds... very good!
I got a problem, however... on starting underearth (the hidden level from ep.2 IIRC), the app freezes & says "no more edicts" or something. I can provide .sav to test it.
Thanks for porting quake to the ds!

- Moncho

Your page says the problem wasn't yet solved. That's why I'm interested on dwelling into the source, to see if I can do something about it :D .

Ah I remember!
Fixing that problem is quite trivial. I just means increasing one define somewhere to increase the number of edicts. However there's no enough memory to just blindly increase it, which is why I didn't.

The fixing of this problem and the other problem where a couple of levels start to swap is related, since I didn't realise that when you define a piece of code to go itcm it also maintains a copy in main memory! So I'm gonna bug wintermute at some point to find out how to sort this ;-)
Once that happens that'll free up a juicy 32k of memory stopping those levels swapping and allowing me to increase the number of edicts! (which well then make that level load)
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Hey simon just wanna say great job on quake ds and now number 2!! I was wondering what would it take for me to get the ds to ds option working on quake ds? on your site it said that i could mess with a file but was sure were to go from there. Well any info would help thanks again fo a great port!

The code's actually in there, it's just at the time that I got it all in the ad-hoc library was pretty hit-and-miss and I never got too far. I'll pick it up again at a later date... I might have a poke with Quake again within the next six months...
(if you're looking in the code look for adhoclan)
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yeah thats the file i was looking for and i found it but wasn't to sure what to do with it lol

I can't seem to get this to work on my Games N' Music.

It gives me the "Cannot find gfx.wad" error.

Any tips on how to fix this?
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simonjhall -
I've got a Games n Music card and release 2 works, but not 3 for some reason. So if you can put up a link to version 2 I'd appreciate it.
(I formatted my micro sd, and realized I couldn't find quakeds in my backup file. But I eventually found the link to version 2, it was just a hassle. So a link would help if I lost it again.)

Some dldi drivers are doing funny stuff with this release which cause the game to run out of memory before it even begins. Maybe the G&M has this problem...
Where are you getting a problem exactly?

Anyway,
http://quake.drunkencoders.com/downloads/quakeds_290407_pre2.zip
is what you want.
Just for kicks, try this:
http://quake.drunkencoders.com/downloads/quakeds_180207_pre1.zip
Awesome huh?!
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Well, it just doesn't boot to put it frankly.
The screen goes black just like it should and then nothing happens.
Every once in a while I have to format my card again then put everything back on before new programs/games work. It might be that, but I haven't had problems with the latest stuff I've put on, so I don' think it's that. And yeah, that's the link I found for the second release. I was just wondering if you could put it on your main site, like under previous releases. I've got mine now, and I'm going to make sure I keep a backup, I was just thinking just in case I couldn't find it again. But great work, I really appreciate it. I have the full version of Quake, and to play it on my DS, is great. I actually play it again.

EDIT - I got it to run, but it's got slowdown. I think release 2 is better for my card.

Is it normal to be so slow? I put this game on my M3 DS real and the loading is huge, i've no patience, is it like this or did I do something wrong? I put the file xxx.nds on my DS just like I would on any other game.

Thanks in advance.

From the very first message on the screen (once the nds is loaded) to seeing the demos playing takes about 10-15 seconds on my DS. I'm using an M3 Simply, and own nearly every other card on the market (I don't have an M3 Real though)
If it takes substantially longer than that, something's definately up. Defrag the card? Reformatting with larger block sizes is really good too.
OTOH if it really is taking 10-15 seconds and you still can't stand it then god help you!
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one that that i did to test (but wasn't required my msd was already fast enough) was to format it differently as suggested by simon.

if you are using windows, goto start > run and type: format G: /Q /A:64k /FS:FAT - where "G" is the letter of your msd card reader.

-another world

Yeah, I've been playing with release 3, and actually there isn't any slowdown, it seemed like release 2 was faster, but I really compared it, and it wasn't. Thanks, this is a really great release.
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gbadev.org forum archive

DS homebrew announcements > QuakeDS release 3

#143917 - simonjhall - Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:00 pm

#143918 - Devil_Spawn - Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:11 pm

#143922 - simonjhall - Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:29 pm

#143924 - Devil_Spawn - Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:01 pm

#143928 - melw - Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:16 pm

#143934 - theli - Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:00 pm

#143935 - Spike - Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:12 pm

#143943 - sonny_jim - Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:03 pm

#143949 - Sh4wn - Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:56 pm

#143950 - Sunray - Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:04 pm

#143956 - MasterMan - Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:16 pm

#143973 - simonjhall - Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:54 pm

#143978 - Gorth_le_Barbare - Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:42 pm

#143982 - tepples - Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:05 am

#143987 - Creebo - Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:43 am

#143998 - Lazy1 - Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:27 am

#144000 - the warlock - Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:42 am

#144002 - sonny_jim - Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:02 am

#144013 - 9th_Sage - Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:28 am

#144014 - JLsoft - Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:48 am

#144020 - theli - Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:52 am

#144021 - lingeringsoul - Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:16 am

#144023 - username - Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:15 am

#144034 - simonjhall - Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:27 pm

#144036 - Gorth_le_Barbare - Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:37 pm

#144038 - simonjhall - Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:47 pm

#144041 - dualscreenman - Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:55 pm

#144043 - Katch - Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:39 pm

#144045 - Gorth_le_Barbare - Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:54 pm

#144046 - JLsoft - Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:56 pm

#144048 - simonjhall - Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:34 pm

#144051 - Gorth_le_Barbare - Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:18 pm

#144054 - Katch - Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:27 pm

#144055 - Gorth_le_Barbare - Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:36 pm

#144056 - mortys - Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:44 pm

#144058 - sonny_jim - Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:42 pm

#144065 - DazJW - Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:36 pm

#144097 - MasterMan - Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:30 am

#144114 - lord_hardware - Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:01 am

#144115 - lord_hardware - Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:04 am

#144117 - OSW - Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:38 am

#144144 - moncho_again - Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:55 pm

#144147 - simonjhall - Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:54 pm

#144151 - Mr. Picklesworth - Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:42 pm

#144164 - MasterMan - Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 pm

#144167 - simonjhall - Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:36 pm

#144169 - Katch - Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:48 pm

#144174 - simonjhall - Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:25 pm

#144202 - MasterMan - Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:32 am

#144209 - Tockit - Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:34 am

#144217 - simonjhall - Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:51 am

#144218 - theli - Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:28 am

#144226 - simonjhall - Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:26 pm

#144227 - theli - Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:51 pm

#144228 - theli - Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:56 pm

#144229 - Darkflame - Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:25 pm

#144244 - theli - Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:07 pm

#144250 - MasterMan - Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:21 pm

#144305 - OOPMan - Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:21 am

#144311 - dualscreenman - Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:09 pm

#144317 - simonjhall - Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:35 pm

#144345 - dualscreenman - Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:09 pm

#144364 - Tockit - Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:47 am

#144365 - Lazy1 - Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:52 am

#144388 - simonjhall - Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:21 pm

#144396 - moncho_again - Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:22 pm

#144432 - Lazy1 - Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:14 pm

#144450 - kusma - Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:39 am

#144624 - simonjhall - Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:10 pm

#144644 - elwing - Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:00 am

#144666 - simonjhall - Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:45 pm

#144667 - kusma - Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:47 pm

#144737 - elwing - Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:21 am

#144751 - phanboy_iv - Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:37 pm

#144767 - Doom5 - Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:04 pm

#144768 - simonjhall - Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:23 pm

#144781 - tepples - Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:39 am

#144787 - sonny_jim - Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:47 am