#29684 - ScottLininger - Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:19 pm
So here's a bit of a noodler for all you smart fellers... (Tepples, Ampz, chime right in. ;)
Would it be possible to develop a flash cart that would ONLY allow you to store homebrew games? I'm just frustrated with the stigma that these things have... everyone assumes you're a pirate when you are working on perfectly legal programs of your own. There was a post today from some guy whose parents won't let him buy a flash cart, and it got me thinking.
It's kind of like reverse piracy protection... Are there any tricks other game platforms have used that a 3rd party cart could take advantage of? Some kind of secret token that is easy to compile into your sourcecode but difficult to insert into a commercial ROM?
Granted, this is nothing that someone who really knows what they're doing couldn't override, but for learning purposes I think it would be cool. Maybe it would even get Nintendo to stop litigating against companies who sell the thing. (I know, these companies sell more to pirates than to homebrewers... but just for sake of argument.)
-Scott
#29690 - pyros - Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:19 pm
I think MBV2 cables can upload 256kb (kilobytes) to a GBA, which is probably too small for any commercial game. And i don't think they can be used to rip carts either. Although i guess they would have the capability of uploading or downloading big files from the host computer. Still i don't know of any software available to do this, so i guess that they cannot (practically) be used for piracy. And 256kbyte is plenty for most homebrew programs.
LikSang sell them, so i suspect they are not viewed as a potential piracy tool.
http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=51&products_id=1415&
#29692 - Touchstone - Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:31 pm
Personally I think it's rather a problem with everyone who automatically think of piracy when flash cartridge is mentioned and lacks the capacity to change their opinion on the matter, and so I think it's them who should change, not me or the equipment I use.
If someone thinks I'm buying a flash cart to copy games and I tell them it's for hobby deving, and they still think it's for piracy I don't really think there's anything else I can, or should have to do.
Besides, if we're talking about my parents they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a regular flash cart and a hobby dev only flash cart (if they would exist) so they would have to trust my word, which is basically the same as promising I wouldn't use a regular flash cart for piracy.
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#29693 - sgeos - Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:56 pm
Perhaps one could set up a memory map with holes in it- sectors that can not be written to. That would make patching commercial games a bit of a pain. (Although I'm not sure how much of a pain). If the holes are at regular intervals, then that would 'simplify' the compiling the program.
-Brendan
#29701 - keldon - Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:39 am
Great suggestion, don't know why it's never been brought up before. I think we should follow this idea for when DS development begins as it will add to our credility.
It might not take holes all over the cart, it could just be something as simple as a single hole and different entry point so the cart will always jump to a certain position, which the commercial carts won't.
#29708 - tepples - Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:00 am
| pyros wrote: |
| I think MBV2 cables can upload 256kb (kilobytes) to a GBA, which is probably too small for any commercial game. And i don't think they can be used to rip carts either.[/url] |
The MBV2 program has a hidden switch -1 (dash one) to dump a GBA Game Pak. It's useful for *ahem* confirming that your flash card was written correctly or that your other dumper is working. - put cart in gba, gba sp, or gb player ("gba device")
- hold start+select while turning on gba device
- mb -1 confirm.gba
- fc /b name_of_ROM confirm.gba
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#29715 - ampz - Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:34 am
| ScottLininger wrote: |
So here's a bit of a noodler for all you smart fellers... (Tepples, Ampz, chime right in. ;)
Would it be possible to develop a flash cart that would ONLY allow you to store homebrew games? |
Yes.
It is technically impossible to run commercial games on a Freelancer cart.
http://www.freelancer-games.com
They execute software only from the upper half of the cart adress space.
Another posibility it to simply make a 8 or 16Mbit cart. There are no 16Mbit commercial games, right?
#29726 - sgeos - Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:33 am
16Mbit with bank switching for larger games?
-Brendan
#29728 - ampz - Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:46 am
Why complicate things?
#29737 - SmileyDude - Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:12 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| Another posibility it to simply make a 8 or 16Mbit cart. There are no 16Mbit commercial games, right? |
Well, Animal Snap has a 32Mbit chip, but when dumped, there is really only 13.6Mbit of game data. So, that would be an example of a 16Mbit commercial game.
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#29740 - tepples - Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:25 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| Why complicate things? |
Because the lawyers want you to.
I've looked at the ROM data for a couple licensed Tetris brand games on GBA, and they could probably easily be made to fit below 16 Mbit.
Besides, it wouldn't be so bad if you split the bankswitching as many NES and GB/GBC games did. Run code from one bank and access data in another. For those things that require accessing two banks at once, load code into IWRAM or EWRAM.
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#29752 - sgeos - Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:01 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| Why complicate things? |
To make it really hard to patch commercial games. If you set the lower 8 Mbit to bank 0 and allow the upper 8 Mbit to be bankswitched (like the gbc) I think the pirates would have a really hard time patching commercial games.
-Brendan
#29755 - tepples - Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:18 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| If you set the lower 8 Mbit to bank 0 and allow the upper 8 Mbit to be bankswitched (like the gbc) I think the pirates would have a really hard time patching commercial games. |
That is, unless the games use some sort of appended data like GBFS.
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#29756 - sgeos - Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:23 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| That is, unless the games use some sort of appended data like GBFS. |
Do you know if many commercial games use something akin to GBFS?
-Brendan
#29774 - ampz - Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:43 pm
Bank switching is just ugly.
What's wrong with just disabling the lower half of the cart adress space and execute the game in the upper half?
Prevents all commercial games, yet we don't have to add ugly bank switching to our code.
#29775 - keldon - Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:53 pm
| ampz wrote: |
Bank switching is just ugly.
What's wrong with just disabling the lower half of the cart adress space and execute the game in the upper half?
Prevents all commercial games, yet we don't have to add ugly bank switching to our code. |
Exactly what I was saying. Plus if each cart abandons the first 1/2k and starts with a jump to 2048 or somthing like that, then nearly all games will be hindered, unless of course they don't use that area but that's unlikely (but possible).
#29816 - MumblyJoe - Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:44 pm
I don't mind the idea of a no-piracy dev-only card, certainly would be nice. Particularly if Nintendo said it was cool and bigger chains would risk selling it. I think the real problem is that:
a) Most people do buy them to pirate games so a manufacturer wouldn't touch it because it would have an extremely low turnover.
b) The GBA is somewhere between middle-age and retirement. Perhaps Nintendo could be talked or petitioned into doing this with the DS?
c) Nobody actually cares about us. Personally I have always felt a bit ripped off that so many interest groups get tv shows and magazines galore etc while developers really have to use "underground" sort of communities to gather information, but thats life.
Sorry to be such a killjoy, I would love to see a dev-only card (particularly if it had some expanded memory or a cable output for debugging data or something cool) but I can't see it ever happening for the GBA. Not unless you can make one cheaply in your home, but it's a lot of bother.
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#29818 - blinky465 - Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:55 pm
| MumblyJoe wrote: |
| I have always felt a bit ripped off that so many interest groups get tv shows and magazines galore etc while developers really have to use "underground" sort of communities to gather information, but thats life. |
heheh. Let's ask Sky to commission an hour of watching someone write code. "when good code turns bad" tonight at 8pm!
I'd tune in.
#32994 - ampz - Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:39 pm
| MumblyJoe wrote: |
| I can't see it ever happening for the GBA. Not unless you can make one cheaply in your home, but it's a lot of bother. |
Like this? :)
It can be assembled by anyone with some SMT soldering skills, and it would be _very_ inexpensive if produced in volume, but due to the saturated flashcart market, I don't see that happening.
#33036 - Dwedit - Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:01 am
The only major problem I would see with a "Development Only" flash cartridge is that you could still stick a ton of NES ROMS onto one of those thingies.
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#33251 - ampz - Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:42 am
I would hardly call that a "major" problem.
#33322 - Cyberman - Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:40 pm
| ampz wrote: |
| I would hardly call that a "major" problem. |
indeed.. you would have a heck of a time playing an NES game on a GBA hehehe
Cyb
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#38992 - Sausage Boy - Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:53 pm
NES games are best played on a NES casemodded into a plexiglass box with tons of diodes and a 120mm fan. But that's just my opinion.
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