#11367 - NovusAmor - Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:42 pm
WARNING Expressed herein are opinions of the author so don't get upset if you disagree...
Hey all,
I thought I would inform everyone that it is possible to get signed by a publisher from the hobby standpoint. My company is living proof that it does happen. Here are some pointers for all of those that are trying to do the same.
1. If you're in highschool then don't even think about trying it, chances are you'll fail. It's better to stay in school and keep improving your skills, after all you're in no rush.
2. If a coder then you should attempt a BS in Comp Sci or relevant degree before trying to start a company. Believe me, it helps to have that on your resume. Although I've heard of people that have made it w/out the degree, it just makes it easier.
3. Your team, at least the majority of it, should be located in the same area so that you can "open" an office or meet regularly.
4. Be ready to quit your job(s) and focus on the company/game full-time for at least one year or more. I'm talking 12 hours a day plus weekends.
5. Have financial backing or save up money. We've burned through thousands by paying ourselves, buying equipment, lawyer fees, other misc business fees. We couldn't have done it without saving up money and then having family support. We also cut our personal spending down to almost nothing. Just food, rent, bills and maybe a movie every once in a while. Basically we lived off of $300-500 a month per person.
6. Talk to every publisher you can. I mean bug them to death, call them, email them, get your product in their faces. But be professional about it and know when to call it quits on a publisher. Believe me, we got turned down many times but kept going until we found one that liked the game.
7. Have a good lawyer! We can thank Eric Kinkead from Game Titan for giving us a good reference. Make sure the lawyer is familar with video game laws (or whatever they're called) and yes you will be paying for it.
8. Build reusable technology in-house. We have our own tools, libraries, engines, ect. Although 3rd party tools are not bad, it is sometimes better to have your own stuff so you can modify it and change it to your needs. Also don't rely on hobby tools (sorry guys) since you have to pass N's lot check and you need to have the code to all game modules in case of an error. Basically I'm saying that if you are trying to get published then don't rely on HAM, or Krawall, or anything like that unless you can get all the source code.
9. Don't try to go over your head with the game idea. If you aren't good at 3d then don't make a 3d game, same goes for RPGs. The last thing you want to attempt first is a full blown RPG. Trust me, we've been down that road before too, it just doesn't happen. To much time, money and resources are needed for an RPG and it's doubtful that you have them.
10. Also on the game design, make sure it's solid. Our design doc is over 200 pages, detailing everything we can think of.
11. Get to know people in the industry. Ask lots of questions. Most will be glad to help, I know we couldn't have done it without some of our contacts.
Last thing before I go:
You're new thus you will be walked on. This is fine, remember it's not about making money just yet. It's about making games and getting into the industry. After that first title is on the selves it gets easier and you have more say in royalties, titles, ect...
I could go on and on but I figure this is enough for you to dwell on. I hope this helps any inspiring companies out there, I know it would've helped us in the beginning.
Our game: World Reborn
Our publisher: Destination Software, Inc.
Us: NeoPong Software, Inc.
http://www.dsigames.com/modules.php?name=DSI-Games-WorldReborn
_________________
Robert
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NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#11368 - niltsair - Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:01 pm
Hey, your game look great, congratulations :-)
And your post was very informatinve, a lot of people come here asking those kinds of question.
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#11374 - regularkid - Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:54 pm
Awsome! Congratulations!
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#11417 - NovusAmor - Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:40 pm
I forgot to add that we did credit gbadev.org in our special thanks. So even if you don't like our game you should buy it just to see that... :)
I bet we're the only ones that have done that so far.
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NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#11418 - Sean - Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:47 pm
I'd also like to note, that if you're in high school, you should work on a portfolio of your work to show what skill you have, rather than spend all of your time trying to get published. You shouldn't just wait until after high school to make gba games, but you shouldn't be concerned with making an awesome game and getting published either. Your education is what's most important.
#11424 - NovusAmor - Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:57 pm
Sean makes a good point! Also we began working on our technology (game engine, ect) while still in college. Our final year was pretty easy going compared to earlier years so we all had time to work to get ourselves ahead of the "game". When we went full-time (graduate college & quit jobs) we had a playable demo, some tools, and a basic engine. Thus we didn't start off with nothing and we kept pushing our selves to do better and add more. That I think helped keep us together and see it through.
So basically what I'm saying is that if you're in school you should try to form your team and do some of the ground work and improve upon it while you're not under the pressure to preform. That will also allow you to see if your team is compatible together and where the weak/strong points are.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#11989 - iuiz - Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:24 pm
THX MAN!
Hey, this is realy great. I think many people know, that they don't have a chanche of being published, but they are all trying it ;). Reading a post from someone who did it is alywase great.
There are also some intresting articels on this topic on gamedev.net, but I think your Posting is one of the better ones, at it is realy close to the comunity. I hope your Articel spreads! It would be great to see it on gamedev :)
Thx again,
iuiz
#12096 - jenswa - Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:08 pm
Wow, how nice to hear that!
Congratulations!
Your game looks nice.
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#12602 - sgeos - Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:15 am
Congrats on getting published. BTW, what exactly is lot check?
-Brendan
#12617 - Touchstone - Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:31 pm
Lot check is where Nintendo check the quality of your game. Making sure there are no bugs, that it obey different rules such as usage of button, displaying names etc.
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#12635 - tepples - Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:54 am
Are you allowed to disclose any of the "different rules" of this lot check? Some of the homebrewers on this board (such as myself) want to know how to make our demos look more professional.
Here's what I've picked up along the way by observing actual licensed games on Super NES, N64, and GBA platforms:
Initial screen order
- BIOS screen
- Copyright screen, including "Licensed by Nintendo" for licensed development
- Publisher logo
- Developer logos
- Opening cut scene (optional)
- Title screen, including the words "Press Start"
Naming
"Control Pad" instead of "joypad" or "D-pad"
"buttons" instead of "keys"
"L button" instead of "left shoulder button"
"Game Pak" instead of "cartridge"
"GBA" instead of "AGB"
"Single-Pak multiplayer" instead of "multiboot"
Usage of buttons
Pause function on Start
Don't use Start or Select as a fire button
B to go back to a previous menu
A or Start to advance to next menu or to the game
_________________
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#12737 - NovusAmor - Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:06 pm
I can't really discuss the lot check items but I can tell you that most of the things you mentioned are not lot check items.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#21885 - Abscissa - Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:29 pm
Sorry, I'm not normally one to bring topics back from the dead, but I just found this and have some questions about it if NovusAmor (or anyone else that could help) is still around.
1. It sounds like publishers are not opposed to submissions made without any official tools or licenses. From what I can tell, Nintendo seems to view homebrew sorts of things as illegal. A publisher is not going to run to Nintendo and say, "Hey, these people over here have been using tools X and Y and a flash cart from Hong Kong, and I know you don't like that" will they?
2. It also sounds like it's just the publisher that needs to be licensed by Nintendo and not the developer, is this correct? Or does the developer get licensed through the publisher after they've worked out a publishing deal?
3. What sorts of things would the lawyer be necessary for, besides looking over the contracts and NDA's and such? I haven't needed to hire a lawyer in the past, approximately how much money in fees should I expect to pay? Do you think it would be workable to deal with a lawyer remotely (telephone, etc.) without meeting in person? Since I'm currently in Ohio, a deadzone of the video game industry, I'd be surprised if I could find one that knew much about video games.
#21886 - tepples - Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:36 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Or does the developer get licensed through the publisher after they've worked out a publishing deal? |
Based on what I've read, this is the case. However, many publishers prefer to have some input into the design and implementation, so don't just approach publishers with a finished product and expect to get it published.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#21888 - SimonB - Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:57 pm
Remember Nintendo vs. Lik-Sang? The following statement was made by Alex Kampl [Lik-Sang] almost a year ago. Its relevant to Question #1 (and its somewhat amusing too):
| Alex Kampl wrote: |
| Again, I have to stress once more, that the very same hardware under attack is used by thousands of hobbyist users and even professional developers for legitimate purpose. Very embarrassing for Nintendo: even the large publisher, who made the original game used in Court for demonstrating purpose, bought hundreds and hundreds of Flash Cartridges from my company for beta testing. And so did numerous other top 10 publishers listed in the stock market. |
Full story can be found here...
Nintendo knows full well most (if not all heh) licenced development companies use these 3rd party products. I guess they would rather sell
their own flash carts but I would hardly think they would sue any manufacturers/resellers of these devices if they we only used for development purpouses (read: not used for piracy).
#21974 - NovusAmor - Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:07 pm
To answer your questions:
1. I don't think publishers care how it's done as long as the end product is legal. Thus don't steal code or ideas.
2. There are a couple of ways to be a developer. You can get licensed without the publisher, via the publisher, or just work under a publisher as a contract deal. The best is to get licensed somehow so that you can deal with other publishers without the first one having any control over it. You can find out the details on wario world.
3. Lawyer is useful for setting up a business, checking copyrights, and many other things that you might not realize. I would expect to use $1,000 to $3,000 in fees and maybe more. Our lawyer is in Cali and we're in Tennessee and we haven't had a problem yet.
And to counter tepples, there are plenty of publishers looking for a finished product. We've been contacted by a couple that were interested in anything we had finished, although that didn't mean they'd publish it but the opportunity is still there. A finished product will go much further than any non-finished product, even if they don't want the game they see that you can do it so they may be willing to sign you for something else.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#21994 - Abscissa - Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:22 pm
Thanks for the help :)
| NovusAmor wrote: |
| You can find out the details on wario world. |
Wario world? Not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean Wario World's developer has discussed their experience on their site or something?
#21998 - Miked0801 - Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:11 am
lol.
No, www.warioworld.com
It's the official development site for all things Nintendo.
#22002 - dagamer34 - Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:18 am
| Miked0801 wrote: |
lol.
No, www.warioworld.com
It's the official development site for all things Nintendo. |
Is this the developer website that allows you to take a look at all the tech specs of they systems (like for example.. the DS). If it is, are you sure you're allowed to give out the web address, even if you need to have a valid account to access anything?
I wonder why it's called warioworld.com instead of marioworld.com or nintendoworld.com. Maybe it's too obvious.
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#22012 - Abscissa - Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:52 am
Ahh, I see. That explains why I've never seen anything developer-related on www.nintendo.com ;)
#22036 - Miked0801 - Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:29 pm
The site is all password protected and the main nintendo page quietly will point you there anyways so no, it's no trade secret.
#22042 - tepples - Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:07 pm
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| I wonder why it's called warioworld.com instead of marioworld.com or nintendoworld.com. Maybe it's too obvious. |
For the same reason it isn't Mario Ware.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#22053 - keldon - Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:07 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
Sorry, I'm not normally one to bring topics back from the dead, but I just found this and have some questions about it if NovusAmor (or anyone else that could help) is still around.
1. It sounds like publishers are not opposed to submissions made without any official tools or licenses. From what I can tell, Nintendo seems to view homebrew sorts of things as illegal. A publisher is not going to run to Nintendo and say, "Hey, these people over here have been using tools X and Y and a flash cart from Hong Kong, and I know you don't like that" will they? |
I queried Nintendo about this, and they said that the homebrew market is fine and does not anger or bother them. It is merely piracy that they do not like and told me to continue with my work.
ALSO, I should add that a business mind is required to progress. Homebrew development is getting somewhat like music development, where people go in search of a major deal before they've got their game strategy set.
#22054 - keldon - Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:15 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Ahh, I see. That explains why I've never seen anything developer-related on www.nintendo.com ;) |
Well they used to post information on how to become a licensed developer, the law etc. I'm not sure if they still have links from their site but the pages still exist - you only have to google, and you can quite happily read their old information, it's even in their old 1997 site design ;)
#22057 - Abscissa - Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:19 pm
Another question: Are you required to purchase the dev kit? Or are there ways around that, such as do the publishers ever just provide one (perhaps as an advance against royalties?), or can you get by without opting to get ahold of the official dev kit? If there's no way around the developer paying the $10k+ up front for that (or owing it to someone, as the case may be), has anyone seen any market data on about what percentange of GBA games are able to re-coup that particular expense?
Also, In regards to the mention about 12 hour days plus weekends, I have to say I'm a little bit suprised to hear that applies to the smaller mobile devices like the GBA and not just the PC/XBox/PS2/GC croud.
#22063 - abilyk - Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:55 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Also, In regards to the mention about 12 hour days plus weekends, I have to say I'm a little bit suprised to hear that applies to the smaller mobile devices like the GBA and not just the PC/XBox/PS2/GC croud. |
I'm surprised as well. I've assembled a team and we're working on a GBA game that we'll start pitching to publishers later on in the year. None of us can afford to work without pay full-time, so all of us have (at least) a part-time paying job and are only able to devote part-time work to this project. Granted, we'd get more done in a shorter time period if we were all able to work full-time, but I'd argue NovusArmor's point that you'd have to quit your day job and work 80-some hours a week to succeed.
Of course, no single approach works well for everyone, but I see no problem with doing game dev part-time until you're able to do otherwise. By the end of the year, we hope to find a publisher who will provide an advance against royalties, allowing us to quit our current jobs and move to full-time development. Even then, I don't plan to work much more than 40 hours per week (with exceptions, of course). I've read that a dev team that works a well-managed, sensible work week (40 hours being the prime example) for the majority of the project will perform better and more efficiently than one that's on a continual "death march." I don't plan to burn myself out of game development with my first couple games. ;)
Edit: Hey Mike, can you provide any insight as to what kind of work week is typical where you work and at other GBA dev houses you know of?
#22068 - dagamer34 - Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:44 pm
| keldon wrote: |
I queried Nintendo about this, and they said that the homebrew market is fine and does not anger or bother them. It is merely piracy that they do not like and told me to continue with my work.
|
How did you actually "query" Nintendo about this? It's not like they just listen to some kid on the street.
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#22069 - keldon - Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:56 pm
| dagamer34 wrote: |
| keldon wrote: |
I queried Nintendo about this, and they said that the homebrew market is fine and does not anger or bother them. It is merely piracy that they do not like and told me to continue with my work.
|
How did you actually "query" Nintendo about this? It's not like they just listen to some kid on the street. |
Yes, that's funny because I thought the same thing. But I basically emailed their department dealing with legal issues - which wouldn't recieve any more than 1 mail per month; besides it was on a seperate site to the commercial site.
Plus it was a personal response and was not automated. But that's just knowing which email address to send it to and how you title it, really. It had lots of info on becoming a developer, etc.
#22071 - dagamer34 - Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:02 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| dagamer34 wrote: | | keldon wrote: |
I queried Nintendo about this, and they said that the homebrew market is fine and does not anger or bother them. It is merely piracy that they do not like and told me to continue with my work.
|
How did you actually "query" Nintendo about this? It's not like they just listen to some kid on the street. |
Yes, that's funny because I thought the same thing. But I basically emailed their department dealing with legal issues - which wouldn't recieve any more than 1 mail per month; besides it was on a seperate site to the commercial site.
Plus it was a personal response and was not automated. But that's just knowing which email address to send it to and how you title it, really. It had lots of info on becoming a developer, etc. |
Would you mind sharing that info?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#22074 - keldon - Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:08 pm
It's hard, because it was probably about 3 years ago. But they had a completely different site with flash games and the lot back then - - or this may have even been the times when it had that N64 design on it and could have been designed by a 15 year old schoolkid.
Oh yes, I remember. There was a link to a corporate section that contained a bucketload of information, including piracy laws etc.
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/index.jsp
They have updated the corporate section since I last looked at it a few months ago (unless I had a direct link to an outdated page). I'm sure you could email them today and get a response.
P.S. The link to the corporate section is at the bottom of the page.
#22196 - NovusAmor - Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:47 pm
I've heard that you can get publishers to loan the dev kit but if you can afford to buy one then do it. That's just another way to make sure you're not stuck with one publisher. I doubt you can go without having one at all since you really need to be able to test everything on actual hardware and run it through some debugging for those hard to catch errors.
For the 12 hour days, you don't work those all the time, once you've finished the project those hours go back to normal. But our first time through we did because we wanted to make sure the game was polished and had everything little thing we could think of, thus the long hours. Our team was very small the first project so everyone was pulling double duty for example: Two programmers, I was the game coder and the other guy was the tool coder. So between the two of us we had a lot of work to do, we made most of our own tools which required a full-time guy on it and that left me to do the game itself. One musician for all music and sfx and although that's not unheard of, we didn't get the kit until the end of development so he had to do all the conversions and put it into the game in less than two months. One designer, again not unheard of but he did most of the level design, ai, dialogue, and ran the daily business side. One artist, I'm still amazed that he was able to crank out all the art in time.
Now we have a few more people on board so we can spread the work out more, however I still like to put in killer hours because I push myself to be the best I can. This is something I love to do (program) so I can put in a 12 hour day and not realize it and since I don't have a wife/kids I don't care. However I was burnt out a little afterwards so I just took some time off and now I'm good to go again.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#22202 - keldon - Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:07 pm
that's how the industry should be. A few people working dead hard rather than a bunch of execs making a quick buck.
#22205 - Abscissa - Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:25 pm
| keldon wrote: |
| that's how the industry should be. A few people working dead hard rather than a bunch of execs making a quick buck. |
Most of the industry does both. A bunch of developers practically killing themselves to make the execs rich.
#22230 - Abscissa - Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:19 am
| NovusAmor wrote: |
| I doubt you can go without having one at all since you really need to be able to test everything on actual hardware and run it through some debugging for those hard to catch errors. |
Is that really much different from what you can do with the homebrew/hobbyist tools and hw?
#22236 - keldon - Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:07 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| NovusAmor wrote: | | I doubt you can go without having one at all since you really need to be able to test everything on actual hardware and run it through some debugging for those hard to catch errors. |
Is that really much different from what you can do with the homebrew/hobbyist tools and hw? |
no$gba is a great tool for debugging, and its emulation is near perfect.
#22240 - Miked0801 - Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:51 pm
But, there is no substitute for hardware in select situations. Besides, I like being able to directly read local vars :)
#22245 - Abscissa - Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:01 pm
| Miked0801 wrote: |
| But, there is no substitute for hardware in select situations. Besides, I like being able to directly read local vars :) |
We can already run programs on hardware with things like Flash carts. But are you two are saying none of those things are able to allow debugging on hardware and the official dev kit is the only way to do that?
#22247 - Miked0801 - Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:47 pm
That I know of - yes. Others may chime in though with different solutions.
#22248 - poslundc - Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:08 pm
Man, you official dev-types are spoiled rotten... ;)
Dan.
#22252 - Miked0801 - Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:46 pm
Yeah, paid to make games. On a budget and on a timeline come hell or high water. It's a living :)
As I've said before though, while the hawrdware does emulate 100% correct, it tends to be a bit buggy, unreliable, and slow. For every day use, I personally use No$GBA as it's debugging features are superior and it's much more responsive. Now if I could only get Martin to add a few minor upgrades to it I'd be in developer heaven...
#22254 - crossraleigh - Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:31 am
| Abscissa wrote: |
| Miked0801 wrote: | | But, there is no substitute for hardware in select situations. Besides, I like being able to directly read local vars :) |
We can already run programs on hardware with things like Flash carts. But are you two are saying none of those things are able to allow debugging on hardware and the official dev kit is the only way to do that? |
Couldn't a private developer do hardware debugging with the Xport 2.0, for an investment of around $140?
#22255 - Miked0801 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:10 am
Interesting. Anyone here have any experience with this app? It's an order of magnitude cheaper than devkits and if it offers comperable execution, then it looks like a really good fit.
#22259 - cosmic4z - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:19 am
| crossraleigh wrote: |
| Abscissa wrote: | | Miked0801 wrote: | | But, there is no substitute for hardware in select situations. Besides, I like being able to directly read local vars :) |
We can already run programs on hardware with things like Flash carts. But are you two are saying none of those things are able to allow debugging on hardware and the official dev kit is the only way to do that? |
Couldn't a private developer do hardware debugging with the Xport 2.0, for an investment of around $140? |
According to charmed labs .........
Xport 2.0 will only do (source-level) debugging from RAM ... apparently there will be a new version that will debug from ROM in a few months.
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#22260 - keldon - Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:49 am
| Miked0801 wrote: |
Yeah, paid to make games. On a budget and on a timeline come hell or high water. It's a living :)
As I've said before though, while the hawrdware does emulate 100% correct, it tends to be a bit buggy, unreliable, and slow. For every day use, I personally use No$GBA as it's debugging features are superior and it's much more responsive. Now if I could only get Martin to add a few minor upgrades to it I'd be in developer heaven... |
Another feature he could add is a display of the joypad buttons that you could actually toggle and the ability to store a list of all calls within a given time so that you can play the game and take a simpler look at what went on instead of tracing from execution; why not email your suggestions to him?
#22266 - NovusAmor - Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:32 pm
Mike,
Is No$Gba really worth $5k? I've been using VisualBoy Advance for everyday work and haven't had a problem yet and when I do I switch to the hardware debugger. Have you used VisualBoy, can you compare the two? It's probably a bit late for switching emulators now since the DS is coming out soon but I've gotta ask.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#22269 - keldon - Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:03 pm
| NovusAmor wrote: |
Mike,
Is No$Gba really worth $5k? I've been using VisualBoy Advance for everyday work and haven't had a problem yet and when I do I switch to the hardware debugger. Have you used VisualBoy, can you compare the two? It's probably a bit late for switching emulators now since the DS is coming out soon but I've gotta ask. |
Well have you used no$? The VisualBoy debugger just doesn't compare; it's like comparing a trucklift to a rusty old shovel. Plus at the time of release VisualBoy required a supercomputer to emulate games that use the processor heavily; whereas no$ could run happily on a 500Mhz machine
#22273 - Miked0801 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:57 pm
To NovusAmor (new love, I like it :) )
Yes No$GBA is worth it. VBoy offers memory viewing and a good VRAM/palette viewer. That's nice, but not all I want. No$GBA offers normal or conditional breakpoints, watchpoints (that is global memory breakpoints), a stack viewer, and some source level debugging ability. It's just shy of being better than a hardware system in terms of debugging ability. The only thing it's missing is the ability to easily view local variables, and to do the math for you when looking at structures (and a few minor bugs when .elf files get really big.) Just watchpoints by themselves are worth 5K to me. Add the fact that it allows you to print debug info to a file and it gives us a really easy and reliable way to profile code.
no$GBC (the GBC version) allowed me to personally become 10x more effective programming on the GBC over the stupid hardware. No$GBA probably allows me to be x2 effective. With just the above things fixed, it'd go to x5. Martin has earned every penny we've sent to him.
To Keldon, we talk with Martin on in spurts. He's been pretty good about addressing feature requests and bugs so yes, we do talk with him...
#22275 - tepples - Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:20 pm
| Miked0801 wrote: |
| VBoy offers memory viewing and a good VRAM/palette viewer. That's nice, but not all I want. No$GBA offers normal or conditional breakpoints, watchpoints (that is global memory breakpoints), a stack viewer, and some source level debugging ability. It's just shy of being better than a hardware system in terms of debugging ability. |
Have you tried hooking VBA or VBA SDL up to GDB?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#22280 - Miked0801 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:51 pm
Last I heard, that was really slow as it uses TCP/IP to do communications. No$GBA gives instant feedback and runs locally :)
#22285 - dagamer34 - Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:29 pm
| Miked0801 wrote: |
To NovusAmor (new love, I like it :) )
Yes No$GBA is worth it. VBoy offers memory viewing and a good VRAM/palette viewer. That's nice, but not all I want. No$GBA offers normal or conditional breakpoints, watchpoints (that is global memory breakpoints), a stack viewer, and some source level debugging ability. It's just shy of being better than a hardware system in terms of debugging ability. The only thing it's missing is the ability to easily view local variables, and to do the math for you when looking at structures (and a few minor bugs when .elf files get really big.) Just watchpoints by themselves are worth 5K to me. Add the fact that it allows you to print debug info to a file and it gives us a really easy and reliable way to profile code.
no$GBC (the GBC version) allowed me to personally become 10x more effective programming on the GBC over the stupid hardware. No$GBA probably allows me to be x2 effective. With just the above things fixed, it'd go to x5. Martin has earned every penny we've sent to him.
To Keldon, we talk with Martin on in spurts. He's been pretty good about addressing feature requests and bugs so yes, we do talk with him... |
Of course, that isn't personally your 5K now is it?
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#22312 - NovusAmor - Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:47 pm
Well seeing that we're wrapping up gba development I'm not about to spend $5k, too bad I didn't find out about this two years ago.
This is going way off topic but I've gotta ask:
Mike, Do you use the IS or SN dev kit? All the features that are in no$gba are featured in SN (which is what we use) and since I've got a nice machine it doesn't run that slow (same with visualboy). The only thing I don't really care for is their profiler and stack viewer but everything else is nice.
_________________
Robert
Senior Programmer
NeoPong Software, Inc
www.neopong.com
#77936 - Miked0801 - Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:32 am
Both, but usually SN - 1 year late.