#25746 - whodoo - Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:51 am
Sometimes I get really astonished when reading answers, since _some_ persons prefer to use more space to tell someone to read some docs than it takes to actually explain the answer/solution.
#25748 - Abscissa - Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:00 am
Ditto
#25752 - Krakken - Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:47 am
"Give a man a fish and he has food for a day teach him how to fish and he has food for life."
#25755 - Ethos - Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:59 am
| Krakken wrote: |
| "Give a man a fish and he has food for a day teach him how to fish and he has food for life." |
lol, pointing him to the pond will do him no good ;)
#25757 - sajiimori - Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:05 am
I'd say I'm astonished that there are people who expect others to provide them with all the answers, without showing any desire to learn independently... but I'm really not astonished. Some people are just like that.
When I read questions that the poster could have answered for themselves by following one of the various tutorials, or looking it up in the usual docs, I assume that the poster will return again each time they encounter an issue of similar difficulty. To prevent a flood of such questions, the usual response is a link to the answer.
Most people who answer questions here don't care to duplicate all the existing documentation, but we often assist with issues that have unclear or incomplete documentation, or help with problems that are beyond the scope of generic GBA docs.
If somebody provides you with a link to the document that provides the exact answer you were looking for, and you ignore it and repeat your question (and then proceed to complain about the person who helped you for free), that's really rude and ungrateful. If you don't understand the docs, paste the part you don't understand and ask about it, but save the attitude.
#25759 - sajiimori - Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:09 am
| Quote: |
| lol, pointing him to the pond will do him no good ;) |
Perhaps that's true of those who have no desire to actually fish, and those people have no business asking others to do it for them.
#25760 - Abscissa - Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:12 am
| Krakken wrote: |
| "Give a man a fish and he has food for a day teach him how to fish and he has food for life." |
True, but screaming "You should not have asked for a fish! How dare you even think to ask!" as happens a lot on message boards, solves nothing and only aggrivates everyone. And in all honesty, a lot of the messages that get flamed are "Teach me how to fish" posts rather than "Give me a fish" posts.
This has become somewhat of a pet peeve of mine lately: The whole "RTFM" mentality just has no place on a message board - in fact it largely defeats the purpose. If a person can't ask a question on a message board without getting flamed for simply *asking* then why even have message boards? Just for the "community"? Community is certainly a big aspect, but if it were the only purpose they'd only have one forum: the "Lounge" or "Offtopic" forums.
The way I like to sum it up is: "Whoever said 'it never hurts to ask' has obviously never been on the internet." There shouldn't be anything wrong with asking: even the biggest RTFM-zealots occasionally overlook a FAQ entry or prior discussion by mistake. There's really no need to get nasty about it: If you know the answer, just say it. Don't pretend you're "helping them to learn" by chastising them for asking instead of looking up. If they'd rather be given fish than learn to fish, that's their choice and you're not doing anyone any favors by complaining about their choice. And if you don't want someone wasting your time because they chose to be social and ask their question instead of going solo, THEN JUST DON'T RESPOND! Your precious time and energy won't be wasted if you ignore their post - nobody's forcing you to respond!
Also, this tends to be particularly bad with newbies. Newbies don't know when they're asking a stupid question, they don't know the right places to go to find the right info, they have major misconceptions about things because after all, they are newbies. This is worst kind of person for us to flame: the person that just DOESN'T know better, and has no reason why they SHOULD know better. Therefore, we should *inform* them instead of complaining that they don't know things that they really don't have any way of knowing. Look at it this way: There probably isn't a single person on this board that wasn't the "how do I make doom?" kid at one time. I know I've done my share of stupid things: like trying to compile a basic program by renaming the extention to exe, or believing I could create a 3D FPS by myself that supported true curved surfaces and destructable environments (long before Red Faction) even though I hadn't even completed a simple Asteroids or Space Invaders. When you see these "uninformed newbie" posts, keep in mind you were once like them. (BTW, I'm not singling out the gbadev forums, in fact this tends to be the tamest of the boards I visit - one of the reasons I keep hanging around so much :) )
I guess I got into more of a rant than I meant to, so my point is just this: It's a game development message board, It's for helping each other out, Ask a question and - if somebody knows the answer - get an answer. If you don't like answering questions, or if you feel everyone should just figure all their own problems out for themselves, then you really have no business being on a game development message board.
#25762 - Abscissa - Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:20 am
| sajiimori wrote: |
| Quote: | | lol, pointing him to the pond will do him no good ;) |
Perhaps that's true of those who have no desire to actually fish, and those people have no business asking others to do it for them. |
The way I figure, though, is that if you don't want to do it for them, then *just don't*. No need to flame, just move on to the next thread.
#25771 - poslundc - Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:19 am
| whodoo wrote: |
| Sometimes I get really astonished when reading answers, since _some_ persons prefer to use more space to tell someone to read some docs than it takes to actually explain the answer/solution. |
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're referring to me, in which case I think it's only fair to quote the space-consuming post I made in response to your query:
| Quote: |
| http://www.cs.rit.edu/~tjh8300/CowBite/CowBiteSpec.htm#Text%20Background%20Map%20Format%3A |
This links directly to the simplest, most direct answer to your question you could have possibly desired. I even indexed into the part of the document that specifically referred to your question for you.
Instead of using the source I provided, you asked again, and had to have the answer spoonfed to you.
Now you are apparently upset that I tried to convince you to read what the link had to say for yourself, that it was a worthwhile document and could save you the trouble of not only this question but plenty of questions you will doubtlessly have in the future.
Please clarify who is supposed to be astonished in this scenario.
Abscissa: I've not known anyone of repute on this board to flame anyone else for asking a newbie question. Often we point people to documents that contain their answers; this is not a rebuke. Those documents exist so that people can use them, refer to them and learn from them. At the same time, if newbies choose to ignore the assistance they are given, then they are the ones being destructive to the community.
I am grateful to the people on this board who have helped me to become a competent GBA programmer. The only thing more difficult for me to fathom than being dissatisfied with a good source for an answer to my question is getting upset at the people who try to provide me with it.
Dan.
#25773 - sajiimori - Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:46 am
| Quote: |
| The way I figure, though, is that if you don't want to do it for them, then *just don't*. No need to flame, just move on to the next thread. |
I agree, but I'm not sure what flame you're referring to (unless you are being rhetorical). I too am at a loss to think of any regulars who have flamed others for asking honest questions.
There is one fellow who has posted a few inflammatory posts over the last couple days, but he's not representative of the community IMO. Also, he seems to have repented a bit, so time will tell.
| Quote: |
| True, but screaming "You should not have asked for a fish! How dare you even think to ask!" as happens a lot on message boards, solves nothing and only aggrivates everyone. And in all honesty, a lot of the messages that get flamed are "Teach me how to fish" posts rather than "Give me a fish" posts. |
Have you been reading comp.lang.lisp or something? ;)
#25775 - Abscissa - Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:10 am
| sajiimori wrote: |
| I agree, but I'm not sure what flame you're referring to (unless you are being rhetorical). I too am at a loss to think of any regulars who have flamed others for asking honest questions. |
Yea, I'm not referring to anything or anyone in particular, it's just something I've noticed a lot on various development message boards that's just begun to push my "pet peeve" button. This thread just seemed an appropriate place to vent.
| sajiimori wrote: |
| Have you been reading comp.lang.lisp or something? ;) |
Hmm, no, but you've piqued my curiosity enough that I just may have to. :)
#25779 - torne - Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:55 am
I just don't answer threads where people are requesting to be spoon-fed information ;)
#25798 - sgeos - Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:05 pm
| Abscissa wrote: |
| It's a game development message board, It's for helping each other out, Ask a question and - if somebody knows the answer - get an answer. |
Post a link to documentation is an answer. If somebody doesn't like that answer, or doesn't want to read it, that is when people get upset. People are free to ask questions about the documentation.
| Abscissa wrote: |
| If you don't like answering questions, or if you feel everyone should just figure all their own problems out for themselves, then you really have no business being on a game development message board. |
People that want feedback and want technical questions answered have business on a technical forum even it they don't want to answer any question. People that believe "everyone should just figure all their own problems" might believe that they can help others learn how to do this.
| Abscissa wrote: |
| And if you don't want someone wasting your time because they chose to be social and ask their question instead of going solo, THEN JUST DON'T RESPOND! |
This is a technical forum, not a social forum or a chat room. A long time ago in a land not so far away I tried to socialize in technical forums. There are better places to socialize.
-Brendan
#25804 - tepples - Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:45 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| If somebody doesn't like that answer ... that is when people get upset. |
Sometimes I point the asker to an answer and then ask what he did not understand. For example, here's how I would have answered it:
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#25808 - Abscissa - Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:44 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| Post a link to documentation is an answer. |
Right, I never said that it wasn't. Like I said, I'm just speaking in the general sense. I think some of the posts in this thread were referring to something specific, but I wasn't. I was just ranting about the general case when people on tehnical boards complain *instead* of doing something constructive like posting a link or explanation, or even just moving on to another thread.
| sgeos wrote: |
| People that believe "everyone should just figure all their own problems" might believe that they can help others learn how to do this. |
And that's great when they do help someone learn to figure it out. But I was talking about the times when people with that belief get indignant instead of helping.
| sgeos wrote: |
| Abscissa wrote: | | And if you don't want someone wasting your time because they chose to be social and ask their question instead of going solo, THEN JUST DON'T RESPOND! |
This is a technical forum, not a social forum or a chat room. A long time ago in a land not so far away I tried to socialize in technical forums. There are better places to socialize.
|
Again, I agree. But that was kind of my point, it's a technical forum so we should be able to ask questions and get answers otherwise it becomes nothing more than a disfunctional social forum. When I mentioned people "choosing to be social instead of going solo" I was merely implying that asking someone a technical question is more social than googling everything. Not that googling everything is bad, it's not, I was just trying to place some value in the act of asking. ie Even if it's better to figure things out on your own, asking at least has the value of being somewhat social, so it's not all that bad to ask something once in a while.
#25832 - dagamer34 - Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:32 am
Can't we all just get along? :)
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25898 - yaustar - Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:09 am
Nah, that's too easy ;)
A lot of beginners really dont know that hte information is out there and therefore relying on the information that they have got. When that informations fails to explain something then they come here to ask the question.
A links provides two things:
1) One a direct answer
2) Another information resource
Once someone has goten the hang of using technical specs such as the Cowbite and gbatrek (?) then they start to rely less on the 'problem->question->answer' scenrio for every problem and more on self ability. (Well, that is what happened to me during a project)
As for flaming... none of the regulars do, the only 'regular' that ticked me off is Paul Shirley for deleting every post he made. This makes searching a hell of a lot harder... still dont know why he left....
_________________
[Blog] [Portfolio]
#25899 - dagamer34 - Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:17 am
| yaustar wrote: |
Nah, that's too easy ;)
A lot of beginners really dont know that hte information is out there and therefore relying on the information that they have got. When that informations fails to explain something then they come here to ask the question.
A links provides two things:
1) One a direct answer
2) Another information resource
Once someone has goten the hang of using technical specs such as the Cowbite and gbatrek (?) then they start to rely less on the 'problem->question->answer' scenrio for every problem and more on self ability. (Well, that is what happened to me during a project)
As for flaming... none of the regulars do, the only 'regular' that ticked me off is Paul Shirley for deleting every post he made. This makes searching a hell of a lot harder... still dont know why he left.... |
gbatek
_________________
Little kids and Playstation 2's don't mix. :(
#25909 - keldon - Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:13 pm
(a) some people's RANTS are a little too long.
(b) I think that people should be independant in learning the GBA; but when they clearly have no clue and someone says 'GOOGLE for it' I see that (in some cases) as inappropriate - especially when a simple search would get them nowhere.
(c) people also need to remember that although there is a DOC_1a, and FAQ_2b, newcomers will ignore them because there are about 100 DOC_1a's and 100 FAQ_2b's to sieve through - so they will ignore even the BOARD FAQ; so a 'POLITE' link to the FAQ, or helpful suggestions are bettern than an impolite 'Don't you know how to read the $&?@ing FAQ?'
#25917 - ScottLininger - Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:11 pm
I started on this board as a total newb, and every single response I've received has been extremely useful. I'd even go so far as to say that the ones that pointed me toward documentation were the BEST replies. There is great documentation out there, but finding it when you're just starting out is surprisingly difficult.
Like Keldon said, there are literally hundreds of little code snippets and tutorials out there, and most of them are useless for a newbie. It takes a while to find the decent resources, and this forum is the BEST resource.
<sniff> Everyone has been so <sniff> nice to me! I love this community! <honnnk!>
-Scott
#25920 - Cepheus - Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:27 pm
Actually, I rather get a link to a document or tutorial as a reply to my question than a direct answer. Because that document or tutorial will not only give me an answer to my question but also answer to my future questions or maybe questions that I haven't thought about. A document is good for technical purposes and a tutorial is good for tips and tricks.