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ohoy! erm...dev compo anyone?
yes indeed! Were thinking deadline will be set around mid september
but more on that later on. first of all we have to make some rules, and
thats where we need your input. How do you want the compo to be
divided? one game and one demo category? how about a misc category
where you can submit other stuff aswell? if so, should this include tools
to aid in gba development or just misc stuff ON the gba?

how should the winners be selected? by a few judges? by all participants?

etc etc! any comments will be taken into consideration. oh and remember,
if you dont make any suggestions now, you will not be allowed to complain
later on :P

Please feel free to discuss this in this thread on the forum

I think we should have 3 categories for games, demos, and misc stuff, but only on the gba.

It would be cool to have the winners selected by participants, but I think selection by a few judges would be better.

Also, I hope there are some good prizes ; ).

But it's great there is gonna be a dev compo since I didn't really get to finish my entry for the GBAX compo.
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

Will it have to be completely new coding, or can I improve a really old game I had written a long time ago and polish it up?
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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#gbadev's first reaction wrote:

<OneManBnd> well...i'm all for a tools category ;)
<pollier> we'll have development tool suites coming out of our ears :)
<pollier> ....yes!
<Joat> I WANT A TOOLS CATEGORY
<Joat> :)

<homerj_> I vote to put OneManBnd, pollier, and Joat in the TOOL category

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(Works for me!)

tepples wrote:

Will it have to be completely new coding, or can I improve a really old, simple game I had written a long time ago and polish it up?

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-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

ooh. Shot down!

And where's the edit button gone?

Quote:

Will it have to be completely new coding, or can I improve a really old game I had written a long time ago and polish it up?

no idea. hopefully people will tell us what they think about this =)

Quote:

Also, I hope there are some good prizes ; ).

oh there will be. We should be able to have about the same level as last years big compo.

ta

Simon

I think there should be a speed-coding type of thing. Release the subject in the chat (say like "Make a solitair game") and give everyone 48 hours or something. I was somewhat pissed that Wonkie Guy won GBAX because that game's been in development for as long as I can remember! I like the idea that everyone has the same amount of time to work on the project. Not "oh, there's a compo? ok, I'll just add a few URLs to an exisiting game I'm making and submit that then go on about my life...". Not that Wonkie Guy didn't deserve to win, the game kicked ass, just that I was a little mad because I couldn't even compete with that :-P.

Anyways... those are my thoughts...

~Sean
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http://www.pbwhere.com

Tools Entry is really a good idea, it's something we could all use afterward :-)

peebrain wrote:

I think there should be a speed-coding type of thing. Release the subject in the chat (say like "Make a solitair game") and give everyone 48 hours or something.

I would rather not have a speed-coding thing because not everyone can devote a full 48 hours or whatever to develop something.
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

darkcloud wrote:

I would rather not have a speed-coding thing because not everyone can devote a full 48 hours or whatever to develop something.

Well you can't please everyone.

~Sean
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http://www.pbwhere.com

But we can be conciderate.
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?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

Mods: please delete this comment.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

IT HAPPENED AGAIN! Apparently I can't edit my own posts anymore, and the duplicate posts were caused by "quote" appearing where "edit" normally appears. Sorry for spamming. I'll stay out of this topic for a while.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

Few sudgestions. Some are probably no brainers.

1) One entry only (so you can only do a tool, demo or game.)

2) Keep the three group idea (game, demo, tool)

3) Game & Demo section should be given a theme. So say a theme is post apocolipse for games then any game entry would be based on this theme. Both should have entirly different themes. So the theme picked for games should be nothing like the theme picked for demos.

4) Voting should be 50/50. 50% of the final score is based on the judges desission. The other 50% is based on open polls. This way nobody can cheat and win by rigging polls & also keeps people from complaining about what the judges gave them (see costis about this one).

That is all I can think of for now.

oh and one more

5) Judges should be made to give a indepth analisis for their scorring.

Should please some other people.

TOOL CATAGORY!!

www.thepernproject.com
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www.drunkencoders.com

subbie wrote:

2) Keep the three group idea (game, demo, tool)

I think we should have a "misc" category for gba also.
So in total, 4 categories.

subbie wrote:

Voting should be 50/50
. . .
Judges should be made to give a indepth analisis for their scorring.

I think the 50/50 thing is a good idea.
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

> I think we should have a "misc" category for gba also.
> So in total, 4 categories.

Agree. A misc category is good.

> I think the 50/50 thing is a good idea.

I don't like the idea of letting the "public" as it were, vote. I think that a popularity contest poll for the public would be neat. It would have to be carried out after the judges final their scores, but before those are released. A prize for the highest non-judge based winner(s) of the popularity contest?

> Will it have to be completely new coding, or can I improve a really
> old game I had written a long time ago and polish it up?

I think that there should be a little weight (or a lot, depending) against previously released stuff, but nothing other than that to prevent it.

> Also, I hope there are some good prizes ; ).

Winner gets published =)

-Brendan

I would like to make it possible to add more than one entry to the competition, even 7 games, 3 tools and 5 demos (not that it's possible to make so much stuff at once for a themed compo).

I think that giving a theme for games is a good idea, because it can help to avoid the Wonkie Guy effect.
About voting I agree it should be 50/50 (or 40/60 or whatever) but I think that only contestants should be allowed to vote.

I would love to see an emulator category. I love gba emulators, and the last comp yielded alot of emulators. Emulators also tend to have a hard time placing well against other projects.

A seperate tool category would also be neat for similar reasons. It could yield some pretty neat tools that otherwise would not be made (at least not soon).

Of course we need game and demo categories.

I kind of like the themed game category idea, as opposed to having a general game category. It limits people from using stuff they have already been working on for a year and also solves the 'What the heck to I make!?' problem. :>
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"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children."
~The Amazon Quartet

A personal requiest :). A MSX2 emulator with sound.

I know a fan translated english version of Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake wich I just either have a bad emulation (bad sound and its very difficult to get the speed right) or I can't save.
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?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

My suggestion for a original compo ^^:

Categorie:
1) Thematic Game: You must, create a game with a specific genre & a specific character/mascotte (made by gbadev.org)
( Exemple : Genre: Plate-forme games | Character/mascotte: A bleu cat )
( with this, you can have a really good comparison of all the thematic Game Entry)
2) Technical Demonstration : Make the best gba demo
3) A tools utility : Make the best tools for the gba coders (compatible for windows 98/2000/ME/XP)
(I don't like so much the idea of a Emulator on a compo, because is very difficult to make a good judgment )

For judge The Thematic Game:
-only judges can vote for all the entry.
-the score of the entry must be show to the public.
-only make original stuff:
-Remake of a game (like the same presentation, the same gameplay, the same sound, ... ) or copied stuff will be discalified.
-the notation of the game must :
Presentation 20/20
This category include the main menu, option, story
Graphics 20/20
The game looks, the animation quality, ...
Sound 20/20
This category rates the quality of the sound effects and the music in the game
Gameplay 20/20
This category rates how fun the game is to play.
This category rates also the controls, design, and overall feel of the game.
Lasting Appeal 20/20
This category rates the time you are likely to spend with the game before you get tired of it.
The depth of the game and another stuff options

-First 3 places win The Tematic Game
-A Consolation Prize for the game that have not a very good stuff ( like bad graphisme, no sound, a bad gameplay, etc... ) but sound good for all the judges.

Other:
a website of the compo (rules and result) sound good.

( the idea of 50% polls, is not correct because bad people who make a entry can vote 0/10 for a another,maybe good, game entry... you know...)

:-)

I don't like speed coding myself, but I do have a game in progress right now that I'd like to enter, but I have been working on it for a long time already, so it might not be quite fair. But hey, I guess if we have enough people with long-term projects already underway, then there's no problem with it^^ Besides, the games will be much higher quality if they're not thrown together as fast as possible.
And yes, tools would be good for everyone. I don't know how you could judge a tool against a game or demo though, so it might be better to split the prizes up between the top 3 of each category. Second and third place probably wouldn't get much, but then again there would be 3 first places, so it's not too much different.

Yea, I'd rather see a bunch of high-quality original games, than some speed-coded games all with the same theme.
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

no *themed* game competition, please.

I dont think the idea of a specific game type like a side scroller, mainly because not every one has experience in all types of game types, but mabey something like having a certain genera like RPG or something would be slightly beter if something like that be needed. The idea that it must have a certain character/mascott would prevent someone from having been working on a game since before the last compo from entering in. Also I dont like the idea of a speed dev, I know I definately would not be able to enter along with alot of other people like me that are just really starting out with gba development. Just my opinions.

oh yea, almost forgot, I dont think there should be a set scoring for the categories(dound, gfx, etc). Some games dont really have an oportunity to but sound in it, I think the judges should play it by ear(no pun intended) on how much weight to put on a certain category.

Idea for Voting:

Top 3 Picks by Judges
Top 3 Picks by contestants

Let the judges choose their top 3 , and let the contestants pick their top 3 among entries other than their own.

I saw something similar to this in a miniature painting contest. It was a very fair judging of the entries and worked well.
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Does the corpse have a familiar face?

Tools section would be nice.

An open theme compo seems a nice idea,
so you can send in what you can do best.

And for rating a game, use judjes and contestants, but contestants
shouldn't be able to vote for their own entry.

I prefer a compo with a week or two, so there is enough time
to think about a game concept, instead of handing over a previous
build game, with minor changes to enter to compo.
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It seems this wasn't lost after all.

jenswa wrote:

An open theme compo seems a nice idea,

Im all for an open compo as well. All in favor, say "Aye". :)
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Does the corpse have a familiar face?

sometimes you need limits to be creative. with a specific theme you can generally count on a lot of variation...
perhaps, a theme of "space" or a genre theme "rpg" (guess you might want quite a bit of time if thats a choice" or "platformer"
Ive always thought themed contests come out quite well, but I guess its more personal preference

As for voting I'd say to keep it to the judges, but perhaps a single prize for the highest publicly voted game, always nice to get appreciation from the community. You could at least keep the entries anonymous until polls are in to keep it from being a popularity contest

those are my thoughts anyway
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I'm in favor of judges doing the scoring, but also having a people's choice award, or at least acknowledgement.

[quote="fatgraham"]
As for voting I'd say to keep it to the judges, but perhaps a single prize for the highest publicly voted game, always nice to get appreciation from the community. You could at least keep the entries anonymous until polls are in to keep it from being a popularity [/quote]

That is a nice idea; I think that avoiding the 'popularity contest' problem would be a good thing. :>
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"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children."
~The Amazon Quartet

[quote="MrMr[iCE]"]
Im all for an open compo as well. All in favor, say "Aye". :)[/quote]

Yea, I say open theme all the way. Actually I guess it doesn't matter to me if it's just like a 2 week thing or something, cause then I'd just do a demo anyway^^

But I think you should be able to enter in more than one category, so like you could make a toolkit to make your game with, and enter both. Just no more than one prize per person, so like if you win first place in 2 things, whichever was farther ahead of the second place guy gets first, and the other is technically disqualified in terms of prizes, but still say it ties with the next best for first, just so you still get some recognition. Or something like that.

I vote for a themed game. I suggest 'scrolling shooter' (like R-Type). It's a great category that's underrepresented on the platform and gives programmers plenty of opportunity to show off.

I think the tools category should be themed as well. You'll avoid having every existing tool in the universe dumped on you, and you can bolster some weak area of the current crop of tools.

Cool :), I got some nice ideas for a classic 2d scrolling shooter :).
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?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

since some of the people want a 'themed' compo, and others want a 'use your own idea/theme' divide the game and demo sections into a themed, and a own idea section, that way the people with 'highly polished' games like wonkie guy, can compete on a advanced, harshly judged level, while the rest of us can compete on a more friendly, themed level.

I feel we should have a theme idea but not a game type or genere (sp?) theme.

I feel the game should be given a theme like post apocolipe for example so then wether you make a platformer, rpg, vertical shooter or other, You have to incoperate the theme of post apocolipse in it.

I don't think it would be fair to make everybody do an rpg, or a platformer, or a card game, or what ever. I just think the games theme should be picked not the games type.

I agree with subbie's last post. A theme is a good idea as it would "force" people to make something completly original. But the game type (RPG, platformer, FPS) should not be fixed.

Well that's not an easy task :) A background story and some basic graphics or physical description of the main characters may define a game theme.
If the idea of a themed game compo is chosen, I suggest we should open here a new forum topic, to let people submit their ideas.
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GBA,GC,NGPC,GP32,FPGA,DS stuff at http://torlus.com/

Picking a genre that's not done to death will encourage new games to be developed. Picking a theme like "Post Apocalypse" will encourage people to start re-working art assets (i.e. Wonkie Mutant).

Sweet idea! Wonkie Mutant! Damn, I'd love to see that :-D.

;-)

~Sean
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http://www.pbwhere.com

to be honest, I think that the last GBA Compo/GBAX Compo were a little unfair.

There is such a big difference between game and a demo, that it can't be compared!! And the next problem is the state of emulators, those were great at the last GBAX Compo, but none of them were rewarded.

But 3 categories means that the big prize has to be split between 3 winners!

Will the Big prize be what drive people to participate though? I think it'll more for the fun of creating something and to win.

Well, it's hard to make a compo and say "Well, you win absolutely nothing, we just can't give out prizes :P" -- Without prizes there's no compo!

A good theme would be Real-time strategy games. I mean face it, the GBA doesn't have enough strategy games!

Mmm.. and Wonkie Guy deserved to win. http://www.kiwibonga.com/herolist.html
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http://www.kiwibonga.com

Drago wrote:

I think that giving a theme for games is a good idea, because it can help to avoid the Wonkie Guy effect.

I disagree, setting a theme could prevent some people from participated, or even worse, make some cast aside an idea they've had for awhile, and could probably make a better game with, for something they haven't put much thought into and don't know how to approach as well.

Too many rules = slower (and sometimes crappier) production

Depending on what resources are available for prizes, perhaps the categories could each have two subcategories - work in progress, and never before released?
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OriginalS est dans la maison!

I think we should have 4 categories.

1) Games
2) Demos
3) Apps (any program that runs on the GBA, but isn't a game or a demo)
4) Tools (Any software that assists in the development of GBA games/apps)

I also think there should be a rule that the program can't have been in development for a long time previous to the compo.

Contestants should be able to enter as many categories as many times as they want.

It would also be nice if people made their programs/source available to assist the community.
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"Oh yeah, so what kind of warrior are you? A code warrior? HAHAHA!"

How will you compare a demo with a game or worse, with a tool? Or will it actually be sort of three different competitions?

I think to prevent things like wonky guy from winning (not going to argue whether that was fair or not), you might want to make up some specific, but abstract rules; things that the game should contain rather than specifying a specific genre.

Example: All games should contain the planet Mars, have an A.I. player and a ufo. This does not limit you to a specific type of game; the judges should decide whether the game fits within these rules to prevent people doing the bare minimum like one picture at the start of the game only.

Sweex wrote:

Example: All games should contain the planet Mars, have an A.I. player and a ufo. This does not limit you to a specific type of game; the judges should decide whether the game fits within these rules to prevent people doing the bare minimum like one picture at the start of the game only.

That sort of thing is still doable in a current project by changing a few graphics files - look at Dangerous XMas, that could have been a Dangerous Mars (or whatever). I think a theme is unecessary - so what if someone has been working on a game for ages? As long as they haven't released a version already, I think it doesn't matter. If they have released an earlier version then I agree that they shouldn't be allowed to enter with that.

Wonky Guy was "new" for the competition, wasn't it? I mean, there wasn't an earlier version available. How do you know the author wasn't writing it specifically to win a compo and put in a lot of extra effort to finish it for the deadline?

Course, if WG was available before, then it makes a bit of a mockery of my statement ;)

As long as there is a misc category, I will be happy :)

Of course prizes helps. I never meant that there shouldn't be any. I merely meant that i don't think people would be bothered too much is the prizes size were reduced a bit to be split in ~3 categories.

Veredox wrote:

As long as there is a misc category, I will be happy :)

Me too :)
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

Wow, sounds like there are a lot of bitter people on here. The 'wonkie guy' effect is all in your minds, go write your own game and put a lot of effort into it and you too can win compos (maybe).

My personal take on a future compo is thus:

Categories:
Games (any form of interactive software)
Demos (non-interactive)
Tools (both PC and GBA side, anything that will help make GBA games)

Yes, this penalizes non-game software that is still interactive (say, a PDA thingy or something), but maybe they should have the option of entering in the Tools category. The reason I didn't include a fourth one is because if there are going to be prizes, theres a finite limit on how we can divvy them up.

Emulators:
Emulators ON the GBA should be banned IMO, they're of no use without ROMs, and they've got no developmental value, they are solely for piracy. Anyone who wants to argue with me on this one, feel free, but you'll not change my mind.

Open versus Closed:
I would prefer an open compo, in both time and subject. However, if people want to close it, then at worst, pick a theme and let people design any game or demo that fits within the theme (the mars example is a good one). Time limit compos are great too, and this summer I'd certainly be interested in competing in one, but for a large compo from gbadev.org, it limits the number of people who can enter. Shen is currently hosting one, and I'm sure other people would be glad to as well (prizes aren't quite as important for a time limited compo, since people enter for the challenge and recognition).

Judging:
A panel of judges prevents it from becomming a popularity contest, and maybe some special mention awards: a peoples choice, best technical feat, and best musical feat maybe. We could have more hon. mentions if we have lesser prizes for them, or maybe just prestiege awards. I agree with the comments that the gbadev.org open compo was very difficult to judge (hell, I was a judge), because of the inclusion of games and demos into one catch-all category.

That is all, go forth, eat pizza and kick ass.
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Joat
http://www.bottledlight.com

Joat wrote:

My personal take on a future compo is thus:

Categories:
Games (any form of interactive software)
Demos (non-interactive)
Tools (both PC and GBA side, anything that will help make GBA games)

Yes, this penalizes non-game software that is still interactive (say, a PDA thingy or something), but maybe they should have the option of entering in the Tools category. The reason I didn't include a fourth one is because if there are going to be prizes, theres a finite limit on how we can divvy them up.

Doesn't sound like you care to much for applications. I do, but I like to be fair, so I'll suggest having three categories: Games, Demos, and Other.

The other category can include both tools and apps, I don't think the two would be as hard to compare as games and demos.
In addition, this will balance the number of entries in each category, as games and demos seem to individually outnumber apps and tools combined.

my 2cents
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Joat wrote:

The 'wonkie guy' effect is all in your minds, go write your own game and put a lot of effort into it and you too can win compos (maybe).

I agree. But actually I think I would like to do a 3D game instead of entering my RPG, so I'll be starting fresh anyway.

Quote:

Emulators ON the GBA should be banned IMO, they're of no use without ROMs, and they've got no developmental value, they are solely for piracy.

But I love playing FF1 (which I do own the NES cart of) on PocketNES^_^ I guess that's the only system I really want an emulator for though, so no emulators in the competition wouldn't bother me.

Quote:

I would prefer an open compo, in both time and subject. However, if people want to close it, then at worst, pick a theme and let people design any game or demo that fits within the theme (the mars example is a good one).

Yea, I could deal with a theme, at least in the games. I don't think there should be any limits on the demos though. That way anyone who didn't like the game theme could just do a demo instead.

Quote:

Time limit compos are great too, and this summer I'd certainly be interested in competing in one, but for a large compo from gbadev.org, it limits the number of people who can enter.

To be honest, I'm slow as heck at coding, so time limit=very bad thing. I could throw a demo together in a week or 2, but I'd need at least a month or 2 for a game.

What about us hardware guys? I've been sittin' on a big GBA project and hope to have a working prototype sometime this summer. Is there any competition for people like me to show their projects?

joemmac wrote:

What about us hardware guys? I've been sittin' on a big GBA project and hope to have a working prototype sometime this summer. Is there any competition for people like me to show their projects?

Yea it'd be cool to have a hardware competition. A lot of nifty, helpful, devices could come out of it.

I guess the number of categories the compo can have is related to the amount of prizes available. If we have a ton of good prizes, we could surely have several categories.

Although the prize isn't the only reason for entering the compo, it's still a major motivation ;)
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Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

darkcloud wrote:

Yea it'd be cool to have a hardware competition. A lot of nifty, helpful, devices could come out of it.

I think that this is a key point for any compo- What are we holding this compo for? For a hardware compo, it looks like the goal would be to produce "a lot of nifty, helpful, devices".

I think the the purpose of the software compo should be to produce "a lot of nifty" demos, "a lot of nifty" games, and "a lot of nifty, helpful" tools and applications. Everything should be done to facilitate this, and nothing to hinder it.

People should participate for that end and not worry about winning or being able to win. Having fun doing it ought to be a by-product of the event.

-Brendan

[quote="Joat"]
Judging:
A panel of judges prevents it from becomming a popularity contest, and maybe some special mention awards: a peoples choice, best technical feat, and best musical feat maybe.
[/quote]

What, no art award? I am hurt. =] I think there should be at least an honorable mention in the artwork category, as long as it is original and not ripped.
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Why a themed game instead of a open game?
First:
Simply because it's very fun to start to coding/drawing a compo game with preset ideas.
It a motivation and especially, at the end of the contest, to compare the style used with others entry.
Second:
I think that a "game compo" is not only for show a old started game, well if you like coding gba game, you can show your old started game without waiting a game compo, you know.

I dont completely agree with that last statement. Yes sometimes it may be slightly easier to think of a plot, but if it is too easy then all the games will be almost exactly the same, and I dont know about other people, but for me I am a whole lot more motivated if something is completely my idea and I know that no one else will do the same thing as I do, after all, would you make a maze game if you knew that 20 other people will be doing something almost exactly the same? I dont think so. Oh yea, and how the hell do you have a "preset idea"???????? That is an oxymoron that makes no sense. Just my opinions.

well, if the themed games is a "tetris" or "maze" game, of course I have the same opition about you, but no, when a speek about a themed game, is not a "tetris" or a simple games that it all the same!

You can make a different game if the genre is a plate-forme game, or a pinball game( why not ;-) )

and I don't think that 20 others peoples make the same game, you know, It's possible to make a different game, if you have a lot of imagination. The different is only about the skill of the coder/graphics guy (Yes, it's a coding competition)

You know, the fun is to make a original game FOR the compo and not to SHOW a game AT the compo.

I have to agree with this last post (from ZoneGN)

i say, specify a word like

anarchy

or something and all entries should revolve around the word.

:s just a suggestion..

ZoneGN wrote:

You know, the fun is to make a original game FOR the compo and not to SHOW a game AT the compo.

That sounds like a good goal for the compo. Are there any others? I'm not convinced that a themed game requirement is enough to prevent people from creating a game and showing off a game at the compo, as opposed to creating it for the compo. I think a more specific requirement is needed.

Then again, is the goal just to make an original game for the compo? If so, then who is to say that a game somebody started in 2001 (or so) wasn't being created for this compo? I must admit that I would find that hard to believe.

-Brendan

I understand sgeos if someone have started a plate-form game in 2001 and the theme game is the same. It's a problem. To fix it, why not a poll for choose the themed game?

ZoneGN wrote:

I understand sgeos if someone have started a plate-form game in 2001 and the theme game is the same. It's a problem. To fix it, why not a poll for choose the themed game?

Assuming that the goal is to get people to make a new project for the compo, I'm just do not think that a themed game requirement is the sound strategy to achieve this goal. I'm not convinced that this is an enforceable goal.

A rule could specifically state that the project must have been started for the compo. 'Been started for the compo' would need a proper definition, and then it would (supposedly) work on the honour system.

I think that the best way to go about forcing a person to create a new entry (as opposed to the honour system), would be to create some really bizarre requirements, such as: must be open source, must use no global variables, must be able to be compiled with any of the other entries, and must be able to start any other entries.

-Brendan

If there are going to be a lot of GBA side application entries, then yeah, it'd make sense to have a category for them, but they've not made a big inroads as far as I know. Text readers, slideshows, and pogoshell are all I can think of off the top of my head.

J-Rod, doh, omitting an Art hon. mention was an oversight on my behalf.

I still don't think theres any reason to require people to make entries just for the compo. Its overly restrictive, and it cuts out people who have something neat they've been working on, and aren't willing to start from scratch for a compo, thus, fewer overall entries, and quite possibly, of lesser quality. A timed compo is one thing, its designed to test your skills in a limited period, but I don't think thats what we are trying to design here.

Brendan, WTF?
I don't even understand half of your 'bizzare requirements' like "must be able to start any other entries", and a requirement to use no global variables is well, plain stupid. I won't comment on a requriement that entries should be open source, but I'd say its quite likely to discourage some people that might have entered otherwise.

The vibe that global variables are bad comes from multi-threading and namespace pollution. Use the tool that best fits the job, GBA games aren't multithreaded (well, not without writing your own thread library, and even then, why?), and as long as you don't expose your variables to modules that shouldn't see them, they are often the best fit for a number of things, as well as more efficient than passing a ton of state parameters to a dozen different functions. If you write OO code, you will often encapsulate the same information that would be in a global variable into objects, but some things still make plenty of sense as globals, like a handle to the active framebuffer, or the top level node of your physics model, the active level, etc...
_________________
Joat
http://www.bottledlight.com

Joat wrote:

Brendan, WTF?

I'm not advocating this approach, just suggesting it as an option.

Joat wrote:

I don't even understand half of your 'bizzare requirements' like "must be able to start any other entries", and a requirement to use no global variables is well, plain stupid. I won't comment on a requriement that entries should be open source, but I'd say its quite likely to discourage some people that might have entered otherwise.

Bizzare requirements could be anything. I'll repeat I think that the best way to go about forcing a person to create a new entry is with mandatory bizzare requirements. Some requirements would work better than others. The specific example I gave is unimportant.

What I really want to know it: What is the goal of this compo?
Clearly the bizzare requirements I stated would discourage some people. Other requirements (themed compo) would discourage more or less people from entering, depending on what they are. What is the goal?

Personally, I think that the goal should be to have neat stuff get made.

-Brendan

I was always under the assumption that the goal of compos was to have fun and flex skills. Of course a prize never hurts. No matter what requirements one makes, people that are determined to cheat will find a way to do so. Just my $.02
_________________
#gameart on EFnet. The pixel owns you.

oh my. heh...i wonder how this will turn out =)

/Simon

I just thought about something, based on last posts...

Maybe a themed compo isn't the better solution. One drawback about a "non-themed" compo is that people that have been working for a long time on their project will be able to bring better entries than people that would start to code as soon as compo will officialy started.
One advantage of this, is that entries may be "better", as they may result of a long time work. And I think that very good entries may show that our "amateur" community (for the most of us) is very capable.

But I think that if we want to promote that "amateur" / homebrew development, then we should promote all that stuff that made this community active. Most tools are either GNU tools, and most docs are homebrew docs. So I think that entries of this compo should be open-source. Open-source doesn't necessary mean open-source in a GNU way. There are plenty of licences : GPL says roughly that if you make a derivative work of the provided source, you have to licence it with GPL. BSD allow you to do (roughly) whatever you want with the source. But there's also licenses that allow you to have a look at the code, but don't allow you to use/distribute it.

Well, that's only my point of view :) But I'm an amateur GBA developer, and I think that most of people here are also amateur developers. And I think that such a compo shoud revendicate that amateur status :)
_________________
GBA,GC,NGPC,GP32,FPGA,DS stuff at http://torlus.com/

Torlus wrote:

One advantage of [allowing entries that had been worked on before the compo] is that entries may be "better", as they may result of a long time work. And I think that very good entries may show that our "amateur" community (for the most of us) is very capable.

I agree.

Quote:

So I think that entries of this compo should be open-source. Open-source doesn't necessary mean open-source in a GNU way. There are plenty of licences : GPL says roughly that if you make a derivative work of the provided source, you have to licence it with GPL. BSD allow you to do (roughly) whatever you want with the source.

Here are some examples of licenses for assets: Creative Commons License Family.

Quote:

But there's also licenses that allow you to have a look at the code, but don't allow you to use/distribute it.

The public has to view the entries somehow. A public programming competition requires that non-commercial distribution of the entries must be unrestricted. I understand some people's points about commercial distribution of assets; the most restrictive Creative Commons license bans that.

I propose the following restriction on the entries: The entire entry must be licensed under an Open Source Initiative approved license or a Creative Commons license.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

well, eveyone seems to have an opinion on the theme thing...

personally, I can see the advantages and the disadvantages.

Might I suggest a new topic simply to poll everyone's opinion on this?
_________________
[Images not permitted - Click here to view it]

Here are my thoughts on what the compo should be:
-There should be a seperate catagory for games themselves and shouldn't have a single catagory for everything
-No emulators, or at least not with the games catagory
-Any programs that have previously been released publicly can not be entered, even if updated by adding new assets
-Each judge will be required to give their reasoning why an entry scored the way it did if the author(s) want to find out why their program ranked in such a way. If a judge can not tell why they gave a program a certain ranking, are they really fit to judge?
-Release all entries almost imediately, and then release the results when the judges are finished. That way everyone can see all the entries ASAP, illegal entries can be disqualified easier because more eyes can see them, and it takes some pressure off the judges because people will be occupied while they are making their decisions
-I don't feel there should be a set theme. I do believe there are positives to having a set theme, but looking at the last compo I think just an "anything goes" approach is still best.
-One entry per person
-Open source not required

JayC

Also; anonymous entires until the results are in. That way everyone gets to vote without knowing whoi made it. If a person is caught saying he made that entry he will be disqualified.
_________________
?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

Daikath wrote:

Also; anonymous entires until the results are in. That way everyone gets to vote without knowing whoi made it. If a person is caught saying he made that entry he will be disqualified.

Then how is one supposed to put a proper copyright notice into the entry?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

hmm.. make it a number and when the results are posted the names behind the numbers are revealed.

I think the anonymous is better because then it wont turn out into a popularity contest.
_________________
?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

it a good idea to make an anonymous entries for the compo, but it also means that someone can't make a logo/credit etc in his own program nor do something like credits - well it's not right, because even if someone doesn't win the competition, he has to make another version of his creation.

i know that it's all for fun, but look at it as an art, do you know any painter who haven't signatured his own painting?

or a demo on demoscene, without a credit?

All that stuff can be solved, if someone starts a project he mails the site and they give him an entry number for when the project is done that number acts as his own signature without the entire world knowing the exact person. And how much trouble is it replacing a number with a name? ;)
_________________
?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

Daikath wrote:

they give him an entry number for when the project is done that number acts as his own signature without the entire world knowing the exact person.

I'm betting this would actually work under the pseudonym provisions of (at least) USA copyright law.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

I do not like the idea of entering in anonymous entries. Personally I want my name plastered on my entry(if I enter) so I can get credit. I'm not understanding why this would be a problem anyway. Most people don't even know who enters what in the end anyway. Here is a typical conversation.
<Person1>I entered the GBA dev compo
<Person2>oh yeah, what did you enter?
<Person1>I made Game X
<Person2>Oh yeah I saw that, nice.
I don't believe people have won past compos by name, but because of the quality of their programs. If there is a fan base of different people, it isn't big enough to slant the vote to warrent anonymous entries. In the end it should come down to the quality of program, and though we might not agree with the judges which program that is, I feel that, in their eyes, they have done that.

I do not like the thought of an anomynous contest. I personaly like to have my name on my game; even if it the entrants are released again with credits when the results are up, most people will likely only download them before that and the earlist version is the most likely to spread.
I doubt anyone has so vast a fanbase that it will do much difference.
And of course if the games are to be anomynous I can't do a cameo as Bertil the Almighty Creator.

SimonB wrote:

ohoy! erm...dev compo anyone?
how should the winners be selected? by a few judges? by all participants?

I vote for me to be a judge.

tepples wrote:

IT HAPPENED AGAIN! Apparently I can't edit my own posts anymore, and the duplicate posts were caused by "quote" appearing where "edit" normally appears. Sorry for spamming. I'll stay out of this topic for a while.

That is not a bug, it is a feature.
There is not 'edit' butten when you have not loged on, the quote butten is the only button visible until you log on to the forum.

i just read through this thread, and i seem to be missing something...
why place restrictions on the types of games that can be submitted? it seems to me that this would just limit creativity and innovations in games. and, ultimately, isn't that the whole point of development contests? isn't a lot of the interests in these contests to see what everyone comes up with?
a lot of the arguments seem to be that the winning games are "too good", but how can that be a bad thing? shouldn't that just motivate others to work that much harder? is winning in such a competition really winning when the vision of games the creators want to create have to be crippled? plus, knowing the proposed deadline is september, doesn't that give everyone all summer to work on a project? and how can you draw the line at development time making the game unfair? some people, despite effort, cannot draw as well as others, so should we remove graphics as well? some cannot program as well as others, either, but if you keep adding handicaps it's really no longer a contest...

This topic has been going on and on and on... and I can't help thinking: "Does it really matter that much what the exact rules are?"

Will it stop you from entering the competition? I think not. Personally, I would enter because it is fun. Sure, it would be nice to be ranked high, but not the main idea I think. This is not about winning, it is about innovative/cool/fun game programming!

If you just like winning, buy a lottery ticket!:-)

Sweex wrote:

If you just like winning, buy a lottery ticket!:-)

A lottery ticket is a losing bet. If you like to win, play cards agaist a bunch of elementry school kids. =P

-Brendan

Sweex wrote:

This topic has been going on and on and on... and I can't help thinking: "Does it really matter that much what the exact rules are?"

six pages worth of posts, so i think so.

Quote:

This is not about winning, it is about innovative/cool/fun game programming!

which was my point for why less restrictions would be beneficial.

I agree that it is too concerned about prices and rules etc. (for my taste at least), and since there is a lot of heteorogenety in the participants programming skills and the effort/time spent in the projects, I would very much like to see some small competitions along with this one; that is, a competition with very few rules and no (yes, no!) prices involved so that beginners also may join; in fact, a small beginners competition sounds great!

In other words(!), I think that it might get too big and professional for the most people to join, so - along with this competition - I would like to see some smaller ones with no prices but the honour of winning itself and the fun of game making on the GBA.

Why not just make a game on the GBA then? You don't have to wait for a competition to make a game!

True, but a competition also encourige people to make games despite the lack of prices; my point is that with a big competition beginners have no chance at all, so making two competitions rather than one (however this could be achieved anyway) would attract many people who wouldn't else join - and itsn't this what we want; having more beginners entering the GBA scene? I would want to! :)

But anyway, this is just some thoughts of mine which actually is out of scope of this discussion... ;)

Quirky wrote:

Why not just make a game on the GBA then? You don't have to wait for a competition to make a game!

We all know that when there's no time pressure, you'll never finish anything (except some rare occasion)... I, for one will leave very fancy code for what it is, and actually try to get it finished on time.

And in the end, I'm very happy of the fact that I *finished* something!

Sweex wrote:

We all know that when there's no time pressure, you'll never finish anything (except some rare occasion)...

A time limit tends to do the opposite with me - if I feel stressed by dead lines I'm more likely not to bother in the first place. Too much like work! ;-)

Big difference is: If you see that you will not finish it on time, then simply stop working on it!

There's no one shouting at you when you're entry is not ready at the deadline, you simply don't compete!:-)

My $0.02,

I think that the projects should be new code, and each participant should submit their project idea to the judges BEFORE they begin their projects. Part of the scoring could be based on how closely the end result matches the intended goal. Each project should be able to show some development history at the end of the project (thus showing it is a new code or idea).

Also, the project should be able to run on a real Gameboy Advance.

Overall, it should just be fun! Competing to win the Gameboy Coding Challenge!

I am looking forward to competing. I hope you all like my ideas! Thanks,

~andrew

so the contest involves only new programmers, and a game ends up being good because a new programmer puts some effort into it. should they be banned or disqualified? if so, why? because their game is better than yours? that's just silly, and so is placing additional restrictions on the contest.
anyone can make a professional-quality game if they put some time and effort into it. banning or coming up with silly rules that penalize those who are willing to put this time and effort into a project is counterproductive. fierce competition is great; it means better games for everyone to play! if your game isn't at the same level as some of the others, keep working on it until it is. how is it a contest if rules are set up to favor one group over another?

andrewtek wrote:

My $0.02,
...I think that the projects should be new code...

Completely from scratch? Write all gfx/audio/input routines again? That would be silly. Just new *game* code, but allow people to use their core library? That sounds right, but who or what determines what's allowed and what not? In other words: Impossible imho...

andrewtek wrote:

...and each participant should submit their project idea to the judges BEFORE they begin their projects...

Could you clarify why?

Sweex wrote:

Completely from scratch?

Of course not. After all, I use the same base "idea" code in every animation/game project I do. I was meaning that your project should be new.

Sweex wrote:

andrewtek wrote:

...and each participant should submit their project idea to the judges BEFORE they begin their projects...

Could you clarify why?

I can clarify. Game design is an art form. It is difficult to judge an art form based soley on the fact that everyone has a different opinion about what art is. However, if you know what the individual was trying to do, and you can see how closely they got there, it might create some additional points of reference for the purpose of judging.

I already have a very good idea of what I want to write. How closely I am able to hit that could be an additional part of the competition.

In skating competitions, as well as gymnastics competitions, they have programs that they set up with the judges. They try to get as close to their program as possible to score the highest points.

Like I said, it is just my two cents... you can take them or leave them. I did not mean to make you upset :)

BTW, can we enter multiple entries? Will there be a cost to enter a project? (I hope someone has not already answered this question)

Yeah, I'll take your two cents... That'll be the first 2 cents of my million then!;-)

I like your point of view! However, I would be surprised if it would actually work (Submitting the idea, and then make entry). I think a compo is for some, quite a chaotic experience. I can imagine people will want to change their idea into something else after the "idea submitting deadline". Telling them they can't will disappoint many, and if they can, the concept doesn't work anymore imho.

Also, what if someone says he is going to make a tetris clone and makes a really perfect one. And another will try some realtime physics engine en will get only halfway. Who gets the most points then? I mean, it would be quite hard to judge.

I think this idea would work for (far) more experienced coders, and not really for newbies. No offense to them (we've all been one!), but I think they lack a a certain bit of focus.

Oh, and I believe it is only one entry/person (you gotta have TONS of time to do more than one anyway), and it'll be free to enter.

Thanks everyone for your input!
I have released a first draft of the rules which youll be able to find here...

It will be updated every now and then so keep checking back.
I will think a bit about the judging of the compo and add that asap...

Thanks again

/Simon

Hmm, would judges be allowed to give extra points for general cool stuff, like fitting it into 256K for multiboot? It would be cool to use tricks like using VRAM for temporary stuff, and overwriting the already played data that won't be used again in a demo, but it would take some extra work, and wouldn't actually make it look any better while running, so I'm not sure if I should bother doing it or not.

But overall, it sounds like the rules couldn't get much better. My main entry will be a demo, but I might as well enter my RPG in the game section too^_^

OK, this whole thread seems to be going around in circles a little bit, but good work guys, you are still coming to more sensible conclusions than the Australian government has in it's whole history :-)

Regardless: how about we have at least one judge that reads the code and scores on that, because I have seen games that people have released where 90% of the code is identical (including comments) to a tutorial I have read. Basically, a person gets a slight advantage if they REALLY know how to code, instead of copying and pasting. The person to judge this would have to be pretty good at C, C++ (OOP) and ASM of course.

Personally, I have been writing an OOP engine and adding to it when I write a new game with a new feature, and it's almost at the stage where all I need to do to create a new game is make the artwork and define one or two classes, so feel free to set a topic fr the game, wont slow me down :-)

Also - an idea. People want a section for non-game programs on the GBA, how about making this part an optimisation catagorie, something like calculate all prime numbers under 2 million, and see who can make the best algorithm and coding choices. Of course I wouldnt enter such a catagorie because I dont know ASM for the GBA and someone who did would undoubtably win.

Anyway, just throwing some ideas into the pot. But remember - you can spend alot of time saying what you can do when it would be easier to say what you cant...
_________________
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Version 2.0 now up - guaranteed at least 100% more pleasing!

THEME !!!!!!!!!

Hold a compo for best theme(s) and give out a small prize :)

THEME !!!!!!!!!
_________________
www.drunkencoders.com

For my bad english, could u please explain what are different between DEMO and GAME ? if I make a game but it doesn't finish so I can show only demo of my game so is it DEMO or GAME ?

A demo is more of a show of graphical effects and music. If you've ever seen demos from groups like Future Crew, Haujobb, Triton..theyre all "technical" demos, theres no game. It just something to wow people with cool graphical effects and music. Try http://scene.org, theres lots of demos on that site, that will give you a better idea of what its all about.
_________________
Does the corpse have a familiar face?

Best definition I've seen: A demo is a music video rendered in real-time.

It's possible to turn almost any demo into a game: just add arrows that scroll upward and make the player press the corresponding direction on the Control Pad when the arrow reaches the top of the screen.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

tepples wrote:

It's possible to turn almost any demo into a game: just add arrows that scroll upward and make the player press the corresponding direction on the Control Pad when the arrow reaches the top of the screen.

Seriously, that is really funny.

-Brendan

Erhm, I am just wondering... Will there be a theme given for this year's compo, and if so, when?

(The first draft doesn't say anything about a theme)

It will be an open competition, ie no theme.

/Si

So, I can already start coding?! Aaargh! No, kiddin'!;-) I've not reached the stage where I can actually start production work anyway!

I will start soon however, 's gonna be phun!

Thanks!

2 months left.....;)

/Si

Can we pospone the deadline?

In europe there is a serious heatwave and it is just simple too hot to work on our entry with this heat, especially since my only internet connection is on a attic wich is extremly warm now.

So its really difficult to work on my entry now with this heat while poeple in other regions of the world can keep working on it so it's not really fair.
_________________
?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

Daikath wrote:

Can we pospone the deadline?

In europe there is a serious heatwave and it is just simple too hot to work on our entry with this heat, especially since my only internet connection is on a attic wich is extremly warm now.

So its really difficult to work on my entry now with this heat while poeple in other regions of the world can keep working on it so it's not really fair.

I totaly agree with Daikath, a couple of weeks extra would do well for the games, and all entries would probably end up a lot more polished.

I agree too, and it will make the compo even more challenging as the entries will certainly be more achieved and of better quality.

I could certainly do with a couple of weeks extra (Deadline end of september instead of halfway?), as my dayjob stretches into the evening too often:(

I don't, however think that the heatwave is a really good excuse though. Sure, it's warm here in the UK, but I'm still coding at night! (Just shorts & no shirt!:)
_________________
If everything fails, read the manual: If even that fails, post on forum!

Yeah...
I have a personal reason too:
I have just switched school, and at the momemt, I'm a little depressed, and school will take up much of my programming, as I have problems with the concentration because of the new "world" that I have entered.

Really there is no good excuse... There is a reason to hold competitions each year, and one of those is that not everyone will be able to participate. The deadline has been set - this is like asking your math teacher for an extension because it's too hot to do your homework...

Quite frankly it's >35 C here every day, (>95 F).....

Anyway, if you can't make this competition there WILL be others in the future.

-Stephen ( Muahaha: http://www.akkit.org/sgstair/ss )
_________________
http://blog.akkit.org/ - http://www.akkit.org/dswifi/

Yeah, I know that it is a silly thing to delay it because of one person, and I wouldn't like it to happend, it's just a explenation.

That demo! that game :O

Well school is out for the summer so it doesnt apply completly :P.

And if it can be warmer then 35 degrees C then you are more used to high tempetures I'd reckon.

I can barely eat or sleep with this heat, let alone code.

But if you dont want to do it for one person ok, another compo might be around but that will take at least 6 months wich isn't short to me.
_________________
?There are no stupid questions but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.?

Yeah... we just wanted to whine :)

I wouldn't mind a bit if the deadline was pushed back some. I think I can finish my demo in time without too much trouble, but it will involve some major scrambling at the last minute if I'm gonna get my RPG ready too. I'll probably just skip it though, I messed something up in it a while back to where it didn't run at all, and then the compo was announced so I got started on a demo, and haven't gotten around to tracking down the problem yet. It may be simple, or it may take days, but either way I doubt I could get it fixed up enough to have a chance at a prize anyway, so I'd probably just end up spending the extra time tweaking the demo to perfection, which is probably what a lot of other people would be doing as well, which is fine by me, cause if nothing else, there'll be more cool stuff to look at^_^

Also, sgstair, you do have a point there, but since everyone kind of took a vote on what the rules should be like in the first place, it seems ok to make modifications if enough people want to.
_________________
___________
The best optimization is to do nothing at all.
Therefore a fully optimized program doesn't exist.
-Deku

Judging from the last couple of posts, most people try to make a demo *and* a game entry. Then, if you run in to time problems, simply drop one or the other and concentrate on finishing just one project. (Usually that's hard enough already!)

(I'm planning on doing both too, but I doubt I'll ever get around in doing a quick 'n fun demo...!)
_________________
If everything fails, read the manual: If even that fails, post on forum!

gbadev.org forum archive

News > development compo anyone?

#5084 - SimonB - Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:20 pm

#5086 - darkcloud - Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:35 pm

#5087 - tepples - Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:37 pm

#5088 - pollier - Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:39 pm

#5089 - tepples - Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:39 pm

#5090 - pollier - Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:26 pm

#5092 - SimonB - Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:47 pm

#5093 - peebrain - Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:04 pm

#5094 - niltsair - Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:26 pm

#5095 - darkcloud - Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:51 pm

#5096 - peebrain - Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:13 pm

#5097 - Daikath - Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:36 pm

#5098 - tepples - Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:41 pm

#5099 - tepples - Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:43 pm

#5100 - subbie - Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:59 am

#5101 - subbie - Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:01 am

#5102 - dovoto - Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:05 am

#5103 - darkcloud - Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:08 am

#5107 - sgeos - Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:44 am

#5112 - Lord Graga - Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:57 am

#5114 - Drago - Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:45 pm

#5116 - BlueboyX - Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:27 pm

#5117 - Daikath - Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:10 pm

#5118 - ZoneGN - Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:47 pm

#5120 - DekuTree64 - Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:01 pm

#5121 - darkcloud - Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:28 pm

#5127 - tom - Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:51 pm

#5132 - maciel310 - Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:05 pm

#5133 - maciel310 - Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:15 pm

#5134 - MrMr[iCE] - Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:37 pm

#5135 - jenswa - Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:00 pm

#5136 - MrMr[iCE] - Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:30 pm

#5137 - fatgraham - Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:46 pm

#5139 - RumGor - Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:43 pm

#5140 - BlueboyX - Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:53 pm

#5142 - DekuTree64 - Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:23 am

#5143 - Mud - Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:40 am

#5144 - Daikath - Tue Apr 22, 2003 1:43 am

#5145 - KholdFuzion - Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:45 am

#5146 - subbie - Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:15 am

#5155 - Torlus - Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:54 am

#5172 - Mud - Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:37 pm

#5176 - peebrain - Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:29 pm

#5191 - blindfold - Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:38 pm

#5192 - niltsair - Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:22 pm

#5199 - kiwibonga - Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:20 am

#5202 - Malefactor - Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:51 am

#5209 - sketcher - Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:56 am

#5214 - Sweex - Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:53 am

#5217 - Quirky - Wed Apr 23, 2003 10:46 am

#5218 - Veredox - Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:54 am

#5225 - niltsair - Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:10 pm

#5230 - darkcloud - Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:39 pm

#5310 - Joat - Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:44 am

#5313 - Malefactor - Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:44 am

#5314 - DekuTree64 - Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:14 am

#5317 - joemmac - Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:23 am

#5320 - darkcloud - Fri Apr 25, 2003 7:05 am

#5326 - sgeos - Fri Apr 25, 2003 7:54 am

#5334 - J-Rod - Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:20 pm

#5337 - ZoneGN - Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:08 pm

#5357 - maciel310 - Sat Apr 26, 2003 12:02 am

#5368 - ZoneGN - Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:06 am

#5372 - niltsair - Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:40 am

#5377 - Raymond - Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:07 am

#5399 - sgeos - Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:08 pm

#5405 - ZoneGN - Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:50 pm

#5408 - sgeos - Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:13 pm

#5415 - Joat - Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:05 am

#5416 - sgeos - Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:32 am

#5432 - J-Rod - Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:30 pm

#5463 - SimonB - Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:19 pm

#5470 - Torlus - Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:21 pm

#5471 - tepples - Tue Apr 29, 2003 12:44 am

#5527 - Malefactor - Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:09 pm

#5595 - JayC - Fri May 02, 2003 5:33 pm

#5749 - Daikath - Thu May 08, 2003 12:37 am

#5763 - tepples - Thu May 08, 2003 6:42 am