gbadev.org forum archive

This is a read-only mirror of the content originally found on forum.gbadev.org (now offline), salvaged from Wayback machine copies. A new forum can be found here.

Graphics > is there any decent map editor?

#157873 - silent_code - Sat May 31, 2008 1:24 pm

hi folks!

i was testing a lot of map editors out there, but unfortunately none seemed to be any good.
either there were problems with controls, missing imperative features, exporting / handling data or you know what.

so, is there any decent (free) map editor out there?

thanks! :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#157875 - tepples - Sat May 31, 2008 1:50 pm

What kind of map editor do you want? What "imperative features" or formats for "exporting / handling data" are you thinking of?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#157877 - silent_code - Sat May 31, 2008 3:15 pm

well, i'd like a map editor, that can export raw binary data, without breaking the map and tile set or palettes (the latter two come in two flavours, on load / import and on save / export.)

secondly, it should be an editor that can produce any size tiled maps, that can be (without too much work spent on programmer side with converting etc.) used in projects targeting the gba or, in my case, the nds.

another feature is "brush" handling. i find it way better to "draw" rectangles over a tileset to select a tile brush, but in some editors you have to pick each tile individually. that should be an optional feature, imo.

well, then there's the user interface. what the heck is a fully feature packed editor good for, when you can't even *scroll* the map inside the editing area?

entity / sprite placement would be an optional feature.

ps: i should have posted this in the origial post, but i was short on time and i was also hoping that someone would simply pop up and make a recommendation.

NOTE: i've already tested all the map editors that are featured on gbadev.org, so please, don't suggest them.
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#157878 - tepples - Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

silent_code wrote:
well, i'd like a map editor, that can export raw binary data

"Raw binary data" is not the name or specification of a format.

Quote:
without breaking the map and tile set or palettes (the latter two come in two flavours, on load / import and on save / export.)

What would a map editor have to do with palettes, unless you are specifically editing a screen-size map for a non-scrolling screen? Every professional scrolling game engine that I've analyzed stores an abstract map of "metatiles", either as a grid (e.g. Rush 'n' Attack, Sonic, Pokemon) or as a list of object definitions (e.g. Mario), and then the game engine generates the hardware tile display and the collision map from that.

Quote:
secondly, it should be an editor that can produce any size tiled maps, that can be (without too much work spent on programmer side with converting etc.) used in projects targeting the gba or, in my case, the nds.

Because the game engine "converts" a metatile map to a hardware map at runtime, I don't see exactly how a map editor would depend on the target platform's hardware.

Quote:
another feature is "brush" handling. i find it way better to "draw" rectangles over a tileset to select a tile brush, but in some editors you have to pick each tile individually. that should be an optional feature, imo.

Please explain "brushes" in map editors so that I can understand what you mean.

Quote:
entity / sprite placement would be an optional feature.

In fact, in some game engines such as the 8- and 16-bit Super Mario games, everything is an "entity" (that is, a tuple of x, y, and what), including background objects such as platforms.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#157880 - silent_code - Sat May 31, 2008 4:27 pm

ok, i need to be a bit more specific, as i realize, you (and probably others, too) don't fully understand my "needs". :^/

raw binary data is not a "format" in a strict way, but it is still a way to output arbitrary raw binary data to a file. that data itself would have a certain format, which in my case, *could* be something close to the nds'/gba's hardware maps.
even if it was just saving meta data to a proprietary and sufficiently documented file format (a real one this time), everything was fine.

BUT: most editors i have tried, tend to export to source code files, which we all know... stinks.
all i need is a stream of binary tile numbers in a binary file, that's it.

those editors, that had the export functionality i am looking for, had insufficient editing capabilities (e.g. see below... let's just leave it at that right now.)

if i just threw all the good aspects of each editor together, it would yield a really decent one! but unfortunately, i don't have the time to create my own editor.

what i mean by tile brush (and i think this is a common term) is a set of one or multiple tiles, which form a meta tile, which one can "draw" onto the map, usually by clicking onto a tile in the editing area.

example: imagine you want to have "closed door structures" in your map, each made of 2x3 8x8 pixel tiles. instead of setting all the individual tiles of the door, some editors allow you to specify all the 2x3 tiles used by the door and set them all together.

right now, i'm feeling like describing a map editor basics rather than requesting a recommendation (and i know you, tepples, don't need that explained) ... but, well, it's ok. :^)


so, i would like to have access to some remotely usable editor to create data with, that i can then use with my code. that would involve meta tiling etc., yes, but i don't want to resolve to any desperate map editing voodoo.

Cearn had his Mirach editor on his page once, but it's gone and unfortunately, as much as i like Usenti, which i use for non tiled graphics and tile sets, Mirach was not meant to be a "feature complete" editor and i can't use it (although i'd like to.)


about entities: yes, it's kind of a generic / subjectively defined term, but what i mean is anything that can move indipendently from the "map" or does some special things (like triggers). for those "entities", all i would need is to be able to set it's position with a certain tile (there would be a special one for each entity type) on a special "entity layer".
but again, that is optional. it can be done in any editor that supports multiple tilesets and does not limit the number of "layers" a map can have.


so, what that clear enough? i'm kind of tired right now, as we're having guests that stay over night... not cool.
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#157882 - tepples - Sat May 31, 2008 4:51 pm

silent_code wrote:
what i mean by tile brush (and i think this is a common term) is a set of one or multiple tiles, which form a meta tile, which one can "draw" onto the map, usually by clicking onto a tile in the editing area.

example: imagine you want to have "closed door structures" in your map, each made of 2x3 8x8 pixel tiles. instead of setting all the individual tiles of the door, some editors allow you to specify all the 2x3 tiles used by the door and set them all together.

Or you could just define one tile that represents "closed door", and then have the game engine expand it to all the tiles that make up the image of a door so that you don't have redundant information for every door. That's what Super Mario Bros. does, that's what Animal Crossing: Wild World does, and that's what Super Smash Bros. Brawl does.

Quote:
right now, i'm feeling like describing a map editor basics rather than requesting a recommendation (and i know you, tepples, don't need that explained) ... but, well, it's ok. :^)

Actually, I did need that explained. The only "map editors" that I've used have been SHMANSi (an app to edit colored ASCII art), SnowBro's NSA (DOS-based title screen editor for NES games), my own 8name (a clone of NSA that runs better on 32-bit Windows), AnimalMap from that Aibo hacker, and the stage builder of Nintendo's Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

Quote:
so, i would like to have access to some remotely usable editor to create data with, that i can then use with my code. that would involve meta tiling etc., yes, but i don't want to resolve to any desperate map editing voodoo.

If you know what you want in an editor, why not make your own?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#157883 - silent_code - Sat May 31, 2008 5:27 pm

hey, that's a nice idea with the tile expanding. but for creating wall structures (which would, at least in most cases i can think of, also require tile brushes to speed up workflow) etc, it would look akward to the artist, i guess.

as i explained earlier, i don't have the time to make one myself, and the project isn't really that big, to make it worthwhile.

i guess i'll have to wait and see how things get along and maybe there will be some spare time to be dedicated to creating a map editor for my needs. it's a pity though, that with so much great home brew for the gba, there are no "good" tools available to the public (at least i didn't find them.) :^(

were it for a bigger project (and the fact that this is just a small side project - i spend most of my time doing "3D stuff" on the pc [and sometimes also on the NDS], not 2D) i'd start to code an editor last week! ;^p

ok. thank you, anyways. :^)

is there a way to try out your 8name? i can only see 8ted on your page.

ps: oh, i know some of those "old" tools, too. pretty creepy (*and* in dos mode.)

pps: regarding the PM i sent you recently: i interpret the lack of response as a "no". as the subject was rather private, i'm easy with that and accept it as is. never mind. :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#157884 - tepples - Sat May 31, 2008 5:55 pm

silent_code wrote:
hey, that's a nice idea with the tile expanding. but for creating wall structures (which would, at least in most cases i can think of, also require tile brushes to speed up workflow) etc, it would look akward to the artist, i guess.

Super Mario World defines a wall structure as an object with a texture, height, and width. SMB and SMW maps are more like SVG than like PNG, and their editors are more like Inkscape than like GIMP. In Sonic 2 for Sega Genesis, the metatiles are 128 pixels by 128 pixels, allowing a large wall to be built up out of a couple structures.

Quote:
it's a pity though, that with so much great home brew for the gba, there are no "good" tools available to the public (at least i didn't find them.) :^(

Map editors are specific to projects because map data models are so specific to projects. Just look at all the different game-specific map editors on ROM hacking sites for commercial NES games alone.

Quote:
were it for a bigger project (and the fact that this is just a small side project - i spend most of my time doing "3D stuff" on the pc [and sometimes also on the NDS], not 2D) i'd start to code an editor last week! ;^p

Sometimes, you can use a similar map editor for a 2D overhead-view game and a 3D game: look at how Wolfenstein 3D level maps are structured, and look at how Animal Crossing: Wild World town maps are structured.

Quote:
is there a way to try out your 8name? i can only see 8ted on your page.

It's in the same package as 8TED.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#157885 - silent_code - Sat May 31, 2008 6:14 pm

thank you for all the info! i will think about using some of it when i have the need to, e.g. creating an editor. :^D

i know that most editors are tied to specific projects and that makes sense. i'm just the type of person that likes re/usability over anything else, so i sort of automatically thought there would be some generic editor out there, that might fit my needs.

i will have to talk to the guys about this, so maybe one will volunteer to create an editor.

as of now, i think nessie's MapEd will have to be enough for the task.
although, i'm still open for suggestions. :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#157940 - sgeos - Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:57 am

If you can fit your needs to an editor, I suspect things will work out.
MapEd is a good editor.

-Brendan

#158009 - rodif - Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:39 am

I think i have what you're looking for. I've posted it a few times here but i don't know if you've came across it. It's not released yet so i guess its no help to you if you need it today but if you don't need it that soon maybe we can work something out.

http://www.stormweavers.com/tgb/movies/simple-demo.html

You define some IO scripts to get the binary file in the format you want, so this should work well for what you need.

ps:
I know I've been in contact with a few others on this thread. I haven't forgotten its just been a busy year, I haven't stopped working on it.

#158026 - silent_code - Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:25 pm

that looks very promissing! :^)
it's definitely more than i would need, but the UI looks just right. :^D
btw: i see it's a java app, what gui toolkit did you use?
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#158109 - rodif - Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:47 am

thanks :)


As for the features that you don't need. The modules that you see in that demo are written as plugins and you will be able to turn on/off the features you want for your project type (project type being a configuration specfic to your game). Also you could write new modules to be able to configure data that is missing from the UI.


as you said it is written in java, it is using simple swing for the UI.

#158113 - Dwedit - Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:54 am

If you want to borrow the code from my old VB map editor, you can always have it for free. I've used it since 1999. Used it as a base, modify it to make it specific for the game I'm making.
_________________
"We are merely sprites that dance at the beck and call of our button pressing overlord."

#158122 - silent_code - Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:28 am

@ Dwedit: i'm interested. :^) where can i get it?
ps: it's in VB, so what would i need in order to compile it? a free solution is needed here. :^/
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#158132 - tepples - Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:28 pm

I know of a free QuickBASIC-compatible compiler, as well as a VB.NET compiler that Microsoft distributes at no charge, but I don't know of any free software that can compile VB 6 or VB.NET.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.

#158134 - pepsiman - Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:13 pm

tepples wrote:
I don't know of any free software that can compile VB 6 or VB.NET.


http://www.mono-project.com/VisualBasic.NET_support

#158135 - silent_code - Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:26 pm

sweet. :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#158421 - brave_orakio - Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:13 am

Wow! The demo that rodif posted looked great but it doesn't look like a map editor, it looks more like a complete game maker like Mark Overmar's Game Maker made in Java.
On side note, how does one use Java's different layout classes like that? I've created a sprite editor in Java and now making a map editor but the Layout classes seem rather difficult to use and my applications end up looking like crap!(I'm not really a Java programmer though, just thought i would use it because it has plenty of powerful classes that can be modified easily for the above purposes).
_________________
help me

#158451 - sajiimori - Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:43 pm

Neat editor, rodif!

#158485 - rodif - Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:45 am

brave_orakio wrote:
Wow! The demo that rodif posted looked great but it doesn't look like a map editor, it looks more like a complete game maker like Mark Overmar's Game Maker made in Java.


I actually haven't installed any of the game makers out there yet to do a compare but they are fundamentally different.

The tool that I'm building has no game engine behind it, and everything you see in the demo is customized to a game engine I'm writing for a specific game. That maybe a subtile difference to some but it is a big design for me as i built it out. If I wanted to I could build a generic game engine, then customize the editor for that specfic game engine, package that up and call it a game maker studio but that isn't my target audience. I want to create a tool for programmers to use with their code, not a tool for artists who wants to build a shareware game.

I like to think of my editor as a big metadata editor for games with some visual feedback.

brave_orakio wrote:

On side note, how does one use Java's different layout classes like that? I've created a sprite editor in Java and now making a map editor but the Layout classes seem rather difficult to use and my applications end up looking like crap!(I'm not really a Java programmer though, just thought i would use it because it has plenty of powerful classes that can be modified easily for the above purposes).


Yeah java's use of the layout classes are a pain. basically to get nice looking layouts you need to master nesting them. I use a combination of border, flow, grid all nested to get the look/layout i'm going for.

I use netbeans ide for my development they came up with a new layout (which i think is being adopted by swing) for laying out dialogs and such more naturally in a wysiwyg gui editor. https://swing-layout.dev.java.net/

sajiimori wrote:
Neat editor, rodif!

ty, sir

#158608 - dovoto - Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:23 pm

Editied:
I also have an editor in the works but having seen rodif's mine feels a bit inadequate :)

www.pernedit.com

Rodif:

Backed up a bit and watched all of the videos you have up. Very impressive. I partcularly like the dynamic brush feature as i have had a similar feature in mind for a while now. I also really like your chat editor and sprite animation builder.

The ability to organize your boards by draging them around and relating them to each other is also something i have been considering.

It would be interesting to see how you handle multiple layers of background.

Is it difficult to define new types of sprites?

Is your tilesize fixed?

Is your brush tool multilayer?
_________________
www.drunkencoders.com

#158613 - rodif - Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:07 pm

dovoto wrote:

Backed up a bit and watched all of the videos you have up. Very impressive. I partcularly like the dynamic brush feature as i have had a similar feature in mind for a while now. I also really like your chat editor and sprite animation builder.

The ability to organize your boards by draging them around and relating them to each other is also something i have been considering.

Thanks. A lot of time has gone into it so far and still needs alot more.

dovoto wrote:

It would be interesting to see how you handle multiple layers of background.


Well, i don't know exactly what you mean by background layer. You can add multiple layers in the layer editor. Think of that as a high level layer a direct corrilation to the layers in your tiled game. Under that i have what i consider editing layers. In those you can also have multiple layers as you can tell in the vidoes i use different layers for containing all of the sprites or brushes but they can also contain multiple simple tile layers you can use the to make editing easier.

Code:

- Board
  - Main Layer
     - Tile Layer
     - Sprite Layer
     - Region Layer
     - Tile Layer (2)
  - Main Layer (2)
     - Tile Layer

I hope that answers your question.

dovoto wrote:

Is it difficult to define new types of sprites?


The types for everything (sprites, chats, regions...) are all configurable thru a config xml file. They all share a common base so every thing that is editable can have multiple types associated with it. If you had different types of tilesets or boards you could add that to the config file.

dovoto wrote:

Is your tilesize fixed?


Nope, you can also have non square tiles (although i haven't tested that in awhile). I plan on adding iso/hex tiles at some point in the future also.

dovoto wrote:

Is your brush tool multilayer?

Yes, anything tile related has multiple layers.

#158616 - dovoto - Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:10 pm

[quote="rodif"]
dovoto wrote:

...


Awesome...is this going to be available at some point to the general public (free or at a price) or is it an internal tool?

I am only working on mine for lack of a decent general purpose tile editor and it appears yours may meet my original design goals (meaning i can stop mine :)

Anyway, nice stuff.
_________________
www.drunkencoders.com

#158618 - silent_code - Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:34 pm

PERNEDIT LOOKS A LOT LIKE WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR!

Thanks dovoto! :^)

I'll check it out and post what I think about it tomorrow (it's 0:40 in UTM+1-land) ;^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#158655 - rodif - Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:32 am

dovoto wrote:

Awesome...is this going to be available at some point to the general public (free or at a price) or is it an internal tool?

I am only working on mine for lack of a decent general purpose tile editor and it appears yours may meet my original design goals (meaning i can stop mine :)


I haven't really decided exactly how I want to release it but I think I'm settled on releasing it free for non commercial products.

#158659 - silent_code - Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:00 am

That would be very nice, rodif! :^D
I guess others would appreciate it as much as I do. :^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.

#158744 - dovoto - Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:14 am

rodif wrote:
dovoto wrote:

Awesome...is this going to be available at some point to the general public (free or at a price) or is it an internal tool?

I am only working on mine for lack of a decent general purpose tile editor and it appears yours may meet my original design goals (meaning i can stop mine :)


I haven't really decided exactly how I want to release it but I think I'm settled on releasing it free for non commercial products.


Well, a free version with most of the features (and a not for profit usage stipulation) would be great but i would not mind paying a small bit for such a tool. Money tends to keep the motivation level up ;)

If i were doing commercial work I would be willing to pay a good deal more than "a bit" for your product if it reaches the level your demo videos forshadow. Not sure if others would feel the same though as 2D map making is not a huge market these days.

Great work and I will try not to forget this thread and miss the release!
_________________
www.drunkencoders.com