#158982 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:19 pm
Alright, I'm a pencil artist (for the most part), as well as a pixil artist. Seeing how I'm going to have troubles learning to code, I thought I would find a way to become some sort of graphics artist for some team somewhere out there in need of some graphics (mostly icons) for some sort of DS homebrew. I have made myself familiar with almost all aspect sizes of icons (from around 12x12 to 32x32). Now the problem is, I mostly work in 32x32, as I need a large canvas for more details, but i was wondering if my icons (because they're all I have on me currently, I lost all my other stuff is a reinstallation of the computer I use) are up to snuff with the homebrew criteria.
Here just a few examples of what I've made:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/Crazy_b1122/Sword2-1.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/Crazy_b1122/SwordLvl2.png
I know they're slightly large in deminsion, especially for a DS/GBA screen, but does it look like I have what it takes? (I used to have over 60 icons of different suits of armour and weapons, but like I said, I lost it in the reinstallation of my computer)
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#158987 - gauauu - Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:15 pm
Those definitely look cool. Do you have any animated character/enemy sprites you can show us? Or tilesets for backgrounds?
#158988 - Kyoufu Kawa - Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:33 pm
The only reason I can think of for those graphics not working on the GBA or DS, aside from the dimensions, is that they're JPEG ;)
#158993 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:31 pm
lol well I use photoshop so... what formate should they be in?
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#158994 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:35 pm
and not on me at the time sadly :( i lost mostl;y every icon i had but ill work on some :)
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#158997 - Dwedit - Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:58 pm
The DS can pretty much draw anything you want it to do in 2D with very few limitations.
_________________
"We are merely sprites that dance at the beck and call of our button pressing overlord."
#158998 - silent_code - Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:00 am
If you want, you can also display .jpg images, no prob, your program would just have to convert them to something that can be displayed on the nds. Chris Double has a (pretty old and outdated) tutorial on his page. :^)
The images look cool, but it's hard to "judge" them for sure without any context. ;^)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#159001 - sgeos - Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:54 am
| Dwedit wrote: |
| The DS can pretty much draw anything you want it to do in 2D with very few limitations. |
The size of the screen is the major limitation.
-Brendan
#159038 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:58 pm
Well mostly I just want to join a team of developers as a graphic artist so that I can get some arts out there in the HB community so more people would come to me as the artist for 2D HB RPGs :p
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159040 - Kyoufu Kawa - Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:43 pm
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| what formate should they be in? |
Something lossless. PNG, GIF, BMP or TGA if you're adventurous...
In the end, it's best to just convert said formats to something native to the system, but that's up to you.
#159086 - sgeos - Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:18 am
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: |
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: | | what formate should they be in? |
Something lossless. PNG, GIF, BMP or TGA if you're adventurous... |
That is not to say other formats can not be dealt with, but there may be conversion issues.
| Kyoufu Kawa wrote: |
| In the end, it's best to just convert said formats to something native to the system, but that's up to you. |
Sure, but pixel artists usually do not have to worry about the particulars.
-Brendan
#159123 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:13 pm
The thing is I work in 24 bit color, isn't the DS 16bit? that would make conversions slightly ugly, along with does regular icon type graphics for the DS (sprites, ect) work with alpha channels?
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159133 - tepples - Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:41 pm
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| The thing is I work in 24 bit color, isn't the DS 16bit? that would make conversions slightly ugly |
That's true of relatively flat areas, but conversions of detailed graphics look less ugly. You can use "posterize to 32 levels" to preview conversions of true-color to high-color. In some cases, you can even go to 8-bit or 4-bit without losing noticeable detail.
| Quote: |
| along with does regular icon type graphics for the DS (sprites, ect) work with alpha channels? |
In 2D modes, the DS alpha channel is 1-bit (all opaque or all transparent). It's possible to make an entire layer or an entire sprite semitransparent, but not per pixel unless you draw your sprites as quads using the 3D core.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159140 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:28 am
So.. does that mean how it has a white background, I couldn't hide it? Or that I could hide out around the swords? Or would I have to save as gifs (as they allow transparency) and entirely delete the white from it and leave it entirely transparent?
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159145 - sgeos - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:51 am
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| So.. does that mean how it has a white background, I couldn't hide it? Or that I could hide out around the swords? Or would I have to save as gifs (as they allow transparency) and entirely delete the white from it and leave it entirely transparent? |
Basically, the programmers will create some conversion tools. Your art needs to work with their tools. The GBA/DS basically use 4-bit color, so your images need to be converted to 15 colors + transparency at some point. Generally, images are indexed and then converted to binary or source.
This has a couple of implications for the artist. First, you can not use more than 15 colors + something to represent transparency. It is common for artists to use formats that do not support transparency. Second, you may need to make indexed images.
PNG is a loss-less format that supports transparency, but transparent pixels may or may not be useful useful for conversion tools. Pixels on the GBA/DS are either 100% transparent or 100% opaque.
Using PNG, pixels can have any transparenct level (37%), and you could even create a gradient from 0% to 100% transparency with everything in between. The GBA/DS can not deal with this kind of transparency though.
You want something lossless, because that way you know it will only have 15 colors + something represent transparency. Indexing your images may make them easier to work with, and some software even lets you put your palette in the order you want it in.
-Brendan
#159157 - silent_code - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:42 am
I recommend usenti by Cearn. It's a nice and slim tool for GBA / NDS graphics editing.
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#159182 - gauauu - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:36 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
This has a couple of implications for the artist. First, you can not use more than 15 colors + something to represent transparency. It is common for artists to use formats that do not support transparency. Second, you may need to make indexed images.
|
What he said. A couple other thoughts:
1. The 15-color palette limit applies to each tile, or each sprite. You can have up to 16 sprite palettes and 16 background palettes on the screen at once*. So, for example, your background tiles could use a few different palettes. In my game, Anguna, for example, in the overworld, I have 2 palettes for tiles in use at any time -- one for basic ground/grass tiles, and one for rocks/walls tiles. So while you do need to work within the 15-color limits, you will likely be able to use more than one palette for areas where you'll really need to (I say likely, as it depends on the overall design of the game -- what's on the screen at once, how your programmer will implement palette loading/swapping/etc)
2. Understand and use the 15 colors to your advantage. In other words, keep track of the palettes you use with different images. Reuse palettes whenever there's significant overlap. And, unless you have tons of time to make lots of sprites and tiles, palette swaps are your friend. Your programmer will love you.
* -- There might be ways of tricking the gba into using more by changing palettes during refreshes, but I'm ignoring that.
#159193 - sgeos - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:19 pm
15 colors is not a set limit, but if you want to use more, you will probably need to do something tricky. Tricky has other limits, and you need to know what the hardware can and can not do before you think about tricky things.
If you are curious about tricks, think paper dolls + using extra palettes. The problem is, you only have 16 object (sprite) and 16 background palettes. In theory, you could use all of them for one crazy compound object, but you could not do anything else.
The other way I know of is scanline effects. You change the palette on a certain scanline, or every scanline. There are speed issues though. You can not change every palette every scanline and still do what you need to do. Complex scanline effects will be prone to bugs or just not working at all because they are not possible (if you are going really crazy).
Palette animations are like scanline effects, only you change the palette every frame. Games like Secret of Mana use this for things like water and lava. The images are actually static (they do not change) and they never show more than 15 colors per frame.
That is a long way of saying, just use 15 colors + transparency for now.
| gauauu wrote: |
| And, unless you have tons of time to make lots of sprites and tiles, palette swaps are your friend. Your programmer will love you. |
Unless we are talking about a masochist, I think the artist will be happier. Programmers should be happy to have access to extra art. I don't see any reason why your tile paging system should care how many tilesets your game includes. ROM size is your limit. Although yes, without compression you can max out the ROM size quite easily.
-Brendan
#159197 - gauauu - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:52 pm
| sgeos wrote: |
| gauauu wrote: | | And, unless you have tons of time to make lots of sprites and tiles, palette swaps are your friend. Your programmer will love you. |
Unless we are talking about a masochist, I think the artist will be happier. Programmers should be happy to have access to extra art. I don't see any reason why your tile paging system should care how many tilesets your game includes. ROM size is your limit. Although yes, without compression you can max out the ROM size quite easily.
|
I guess you're right. I was thinking in terms of my own experience, where I was programmer + game designer, and had an artist with relatively limited time. Palette swaps from my artist meant I got to add more enemies into my game, as "just making more different enemy graphics" wasn't an option.
So let me change my statement: your game designer/project manager will love you.
#159205 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:25 pm
By pallete swapping, you mean something like the pokemon games shiny pokemon, how they're the exact same graphic, just different colors? So thats what they did. So how do you make a pallete? I'm not entirely sure of some of this stuff because I've never had to work with palletes before, I've just done rgb stuff (just like I've never really made the images to index form either, but I know that drops how much memory they take up, doesn't it?) and the 15 color palette limit doesn't seem to difficult to use as well... But I'll check out that tool you suggested and, obviously, I'm gonna start saving in png format and indexing everything. :) thanks for the advice.
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159214 - sgeos - Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:16 am
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| By pallete swapping, you mean something like the pokemon games shiny pokemon, how they're the exact same graphic, just different colors? |
Exactly. Palette animation uses a similar concept.
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| So how do you make a pallete? |
On the PC, you would edit the palette indices in an indexed images. It depends on your software. Games typically store images and palatte separately though, and define image palatte pairs for display purposes. This is why palette swaps are so natural. No new images, maybe a new palette (maybe not) and a new palette image pair.
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| I'm not entirely sure of some of this stuff because I've never had to work with palletes before, |
Reasonable.
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| just like I've never really made the images to index form either, but I know that drops how much memory they take up, doesn't it? |
Yes, because you are storing each pixel with 8 bits instead of, say 24. The palette only add 24 * say 256 bits to your image assuming it stores a palette with 256 entries.
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| and the 15 color palette limit doesn't seem to difficult to use as well... |
Depends on what you are doing.
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| But I'll check out that tool you suggested and, obviously, I'm gonna start saving in png format and indexing everything. |
Good plan. Using the GIMP you index an image, although the GIMP is a bad tool for pixel art. I suspect Graphics Gale can do everything you want to do.
-Brendan
#159217 - silent_code - Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:55 am
EDIT @ sgeos: Thanks for clearing it up! :^)
| sgeos wrote: |
| The palette only add 24 * say 256 bits to your image assuming it stores a palette with 256 entries. |
It should be "16 bits * 256 entries." The NDS doesn't have 24bit colors, only 15bit (+ 1bit of "alpha"). ;^)
Though lighting is calculated in 24bit color space, but then the displays are only 18bit and even capturing only works in 15bit color mode... ;^D
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
Last edited by silent_code on Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
#159228 - sgeos - Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:05 pm
| silent_code wrote: |
| sgeos wrote: | | The palette only add 24 * say 256 bits to your image assuming it stores a palette with 256 entries. |
It should be "16 bits * 256 entries." The NDS doesn't have 24bit colors, only 15bit (+ 1bit of "alpha"). ;^) |
I was talking about the data section for files on the PC. Naturally, with compressed file formats the number of pixels only kind of correlate to the number of bytes.
When I convert art, I typically just drob LSBs of each RGB component. (OK, the truth is that I really prefer to work in HSB space.)
-Brendan
#159238 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:59 pm
so when it comes to the original image, I would make it colored correct? But, could I make a grey scale palette to make the original images of all things in, and then make multiple other palettes that'll just replace the original grey scale when needed to be done? also currently I am working on a little 1 panel sprite (just a standing there frame of it) to show what I can do. but what should its height deminsion be? it's right now 32x32, but thats just a little to small from what i see, could I change it to 37 in height and not really make it to large for the screen?
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159242 - silent_code - Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:40 pm
Short: No.
Slighly longer: It pretty much depends on the game. If it allowed multi object sprites, you could, e.g. cut it in half and have two objects represent the whole sprite. You could also use differnt sizes for the objects (wide or tall object modes.)
_________________
July 5th 08: "Volumetric Shadow Demo" 1.6.0 (final) source released
June 5th 08: "Zombie NDS" WIP released!
It's all on my page, just click WWW below.
#159248 - sgeos - Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:52 am
If you are going for monochrome art (or have other special requirements), you can work in greyscale and change the palette at runtime.
Imagine you have a guy. He has skin and hair. If you use greyscale, how can you ensure that his skin and hair are colored properly if they have roughly the same brightness? You do not have to use the final colors. You could give him green skin and pink hair and then replace those with more reasonable colors at runtime.
-Brendan
#159251 - tepples - Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:00 am
Is there an efficient way to draw and code character costume changes that are more sophisticated than just recoloring one or two elements, within a 2D (not 3D) engine?
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159252 - sgeos - Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:29 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Is there an efficient way to draw and code character costume changes that are more sophisticated than just recoloring one or two elements, within a 2D (not 3D) engine? |
Given a proper art spec, you can blit to VRAM or permute at build time. If you blit to VRAM, you probably want to cache frames. If you permute at build time, you may wish to exclude combinations that probably will not be used. (To save space.)
Either way, think paper dolls.
-Brendan
#159291 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:02 pm
But with palettes, couldn't you use corresponding shades? like shade one in the grey scale palette will only be swapped by shade 1 of the colored palette (if that even makes sense)?
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159309 - sgeos - Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:47 am
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| But with palettes, couldn't you use corresponding shades? like shade one in the grey scale palette will only be swapped by shade 1 of the colored palette (if that even makes sense)? |
In theory, yes. In practice it is just easier to use different colors. You can make a green dragon with a yellow belly and red eyes, and then create the alternative palettes later. If you want to, you could even have a palette spec so that any palette can be used with any monster and not look horrible. For example:
| Code: |
Color 0x0: Transparent
Color 0x1: Black
Color 0x2: White
Color 0x3: Eyes
Color 0x4: Skin Light
Color 0x5: Skin Base
Color 0x6: Skin Shadow
Color 0x7: Hair Light
Color 0x8: Hair Base
Color 0x9: Hair Shadow
Color 0xA: Clothing Light
Color 0xB: Clothing Base
Color 0xC: Clothing Shadow
Color 0xD: Sub Clothing Light
Color 0xE: Sub Clothing Base
Color 0xF: Sub Clothing Shadow |
In theory, the sprite's palette could even be filled in algorithmically if you use some like this.
-Brendan
#159344 - tepples - Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:48 pm
Great idea, sgeos. That would even allow paper doll layers to be stored with 2 bits per pixel. But then the problem remains of drawing the character in all positions doing each action in each type of clothing. I'm starting to appreciate why Animal Crossing wasn't ported to GBA.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#159359 - sgeos - Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:24 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| That would even allow paper doll layers to be stored with 2 bits per pixel. |
That optimization had not occurred to me. This is why it is good idea to run things by a couple of other people. Yes, the art could be stored 2 bit per pixels (transparent, light, base, shadow), and you could use some other metadata to shift it into the final palette position. The thing I like about this, is that you only have to store the HSB values for the base color, and you can fill the light and shadow in at run time. (Note that just changing the brightness is not best way of doing this; hue needs to be changed a little as well, depending on whether you want a hot shadow or a cold shadow.)
| Quote: |
| But then the problem remains of drawing the character in all positions doing each action in each type of clothing. |
Basically, you create one animated character template. Then you create all the costume animations so they will fit that template. Then you create the other characters and make sure that they are also compatible with the template. All of your character will move the same. If you need big and small characters, then you create the big template and the small template and create two animations for each outfit.
Basically, it just amounts to the artists putting in a lot of hours. For what it's worth, they may not actually put in any more hours. Once the system is set up, I suspect that making characters with unique looks could be done very efficiently.
| Quote: |
| I'm starting to appreciate why Animal Crossing wasn't ported to GBA. |
From the standpoint of the publisher, they need to look at the projected ROI of "Animal Crossing GBA" and compare it with the projected ROI for any of the other wonder proposed projects coming through the door. Then they pick the one they think will do the best. They do not have unlimited resources (can't make everything), nor do their customers (can't buy everything).
-Brendan
#159601 - 11X_daemon_X11 - Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:53 pm
So I have a sprite (only 1 frame done thouh :() I wanna put up, but its on my ds. I'll put it up tomorrow I do believe just to show what I can kinda do lol
_________________
IRC (please join :D):
http://evilnetirc.ath.cx/
#159671 - sgeos - Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:25 am
| 11X_daemon_X11 wrote: |
| So I have a sprite (only 1 frame done thouh :() I wanna put up, but its on my ds. I'll put it up tomorrow I do believe just to show what I can kinda do lol |
Animated sprites are hard. I'm not sure what your ultimate goals are, but for what it is worth, ability is often taken for granted in the world of commercial art; it is all about speed. I remember commenting that a certain artist's work looked pretty good to me, and the lead reasponded 'anyone who makes it this far can do that; he is not fast enough'. Of course, if you are content remaining a hobbiest, none of this matters.
-Brendan