#2139 - doragasu - Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:14 am
Is there a tool to convert a 256 color bitmap (with for example 60 different colors) to a gba map using 16 color tiles? I've seen several tools like this, but they always work only with 256 color tiles or if you want to output 16 bit tiles, the input bmp must have 16 colors or less.
#2141 - Splam - Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:13 am
Might be better to use a good graphics package to reduce the colours first. Most of them will use better colour reduction algorithms than free gba converters so your results will be better.
#2150 - tepples - Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:36 am
But is there a way to reduce the colors of a bitmap so that each 8x8 pixel tile of an image can use one of sixteen 15-color palettes, instead of using one 16-color palette for the whole map? This may provide gains because some areas of an image use more of a given color than other areas; for example, a sky area will be mostly light blues, and a grassy area will be mostly greens.
I think I know a way, in theory, but I know of no tools that implement anything like this. First, you have to decide which palette each tile will take. Then you have to design each palette to minimize error for the pixels that belong to each palette. Now dither the image based on what colors are available for each palette entry.
It won't be exactly straightforward to decide which palette each tile will take, but here's a suggestion: Reduce the image by a factor of 8 in each dimension (full screen becomes 30x20 pixels) and color-reduce that to 16 indexed colors. Then assign each tile's palette index based on the corresponding pixel of the reduced image.
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#2173 - Splam - Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:23 pm
I was thinking of adding something like this to my tools but so far haven't needed it. Might have to look into it some more as I can see it coming in handy one day.
#2215 - Maddox - Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:41 am
Did you guys know that in every real game studio, probably in the world, they don't make maps by taking 256-color art and converting it down to 16-color? That would make their games look even more crappy! They actually draw the art with the destination format in mind.
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#2217 - tepples - Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:49 am
| Maddox wrote: |
| Did you guys know that in every real game studio, probably in the world, they don't make maps by taking 256-color art and converting it down to 16-color? |
I can think of a few Super NES games that did title screens and static backgrounds that way. I've played Metroid Fusion in VisualBoyAdvance, and it also seems to use that technique for cut scenes.
| Quote: |
| They actually draw the art with the destination format in mind. |
That's not as helpful if, as in Midway's Mortal Kombat, the source is not hand-drawn art but retouched video of live actors.
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#2248 - Splam - Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:15 pm
| Maddox wrote: |
| Did you guys know that in every real game studio, probably in the world, they don't make maps by taking 256-color art and converting it down to 16-color? That would make their games look even more crappy! They actually draw the art with the destination format in mind. |
Yes but 95% of the people on this forum don't work for software companies and I'm sure you (like me) have had endless problems when trying to get an artist with no games experience to draw gfx in the correct format.
#2274 - doragasu - Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:55 pm
| Splam wrote: |
| Yes but 95% of the people on this forum don't work for software companies and I'm sure you (like me) have had endless problems when trying to get an artist with no games experience to draw gfx in the correct format. |
Yes, I'm a newbie coder, not an artist.
#2308 - Maddox - Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:03 pm
Just because you are not an artist doesn't meen you can't draw in the same format you want your art to be in!
doragasu,
You can do it! Overcome your own mentally-imposed limitations. Get an artist friend who knows how to draw. Or here's a hint: make a tile set that confirms to the "16 palettes of 16 colors" rule. Then use the tile set to build a map. It IS that easy!
splam,
I guess you are right. But I want EVERYONE to be the best they can, blah blah blah, so that I don't have to see sh*tty games EVERYWHERE. You know what I mean. You KNOW it!
Static screens (title screens, etc.) shouldn't need color reduction because they can just use bitmap modes.
Join Maddox in the war against crappy games!
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#2316 - JonH - Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:39 am
| Maddox wrote: |
But I want EVERYONE to be the best they can, blah blah blah, so that I don't have to see sh*tty games EVERYWHERE. You know what I mean. You KNOW it!
|
The only sh*tty games that I know of are only available on the shelf at all game stores. Try the freeware stuff, TOD is by far the best version of tetris ever made.
#2323 - Maddox - Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:46 am
| JonH wrote: |
| The only sh*tty games that I know of are only available on the shelf at all game stores... |
Well... yeah! That's what I mean. I care about what the customer get, yada yada because it effects my industry, my employment, etc. No one cares about homebrew games, else homebreweries would make money! Besides, there really isn't too much of a market for puzzle games. Publishers don't care. They sell license-based games. When Nintendo releases puzzle games, they shove Mario, Wario, or Yoshi, or ? up that puzzle games *ass: Dr. Mario, Yoshi Cocky, Kirby's whatever...
I want commercial games to stop sucking!
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#2327 - Splam - Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:19 am
Totally agree, theres too much crap being released for gba just because people are happy with simple stuff on handhelds. gba is capable of a lot more than is being done on it. Stop buying the crap and companies will be forced to produce decent stuff. You've only got to look at the number of companies closing down or selling out to the "big few" to see that it's been left to go too far in the past few years.
#2329 - JonH - Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:28 am
i mean... have you played the Flintstones on GBA?! what the f*ck was that all about! haven't these people ever played a video game before?! i nearly cried when i played it - people like that can sell pure sh*t in a GBA box, yet all the quality original homebrewers can't even get a job in the industry. this sucks - i'm going to 'do' a Jeff Minter.
#2332 - tepples - Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:54 am
| Maddox wrote: |
| No one cares about homebrew games, else homebreweries would make money! |
Homebreweries do make money, especially on computer platforms. It's called shareware. The reason shareware does not exist on the GBA, Wonderswan, and NGPC is because of the console makers' tight control over what software can be marketed for those systems.
| Quote: |
| Besides, there really isn't too much of a market for puzzle games. |
Then why did Sega bring out Puyo Pop on GBA without the Sonic license? (The GameCube version of Puyo Pop, called Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, has the Sonic license because it's on the same disc with a half dozen other emulated Sonic games.) And what about Mr. Driller 1 and 2? What about Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo and Spin Jam for PS1? What about the Bust-A-Move series, that's still going strong?
| Quote: |
| When Nintendo releases puzzle games, they shove Mario, Wario, or Yoshi, or ? up that puzzle games (rear end) |
Not always. I'll give you Dr. M, Yoshi, Yoshi's Cookie, Kirby's Avalanche, Wario's Woods, but there have been almost as many exceptions. What about Tetris for Game Boy and NES? No appearances of the Mario Bros. except in short cameos. What about Tetris 2 for Game Boy, NES, and Super NES, and Tetrisphere and The New Tetris for N64? No Mario at all. What about "Panel de Pon", the Japanese version of Tetris Attack for Super NES? No Yoshi, no Pokemon.
And yes, Yoshi's Cookie can be done without Yoshi; it's called "Russian Square" from the Windows XP Plus! pack.
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Last edited by tepples on Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
#2335 - JonH - Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:06 am
| tepples wrote: |
| Homebreweries do make money, especially on computer platforms. It's called shareware. The reason shareware does not exist on the GBA, Wonderswan, and NGPC is because of the console makers' tight control over what software can be marketed for those systems. |
I've been thinking about this recently - it is possible to do shareware on the GBA, but no one has tried it yet. Knock up a demo of your game and distribute it freely, put your address inside where they can send payment and you send them the full and complete ROM file. obviously, this limits your market to people with a Linker / other backup device - but if the game is good enough then i'm sure you could sell a 'homebrew' (i hate that word!) game for about ?5 per copy.
for example - if a gamer had a choice of the original GBA version of Bomberman for ?30 - ?40, or a rather good but massively playable GBA clone for ?5; which do you think they'd choose?
#2348 - Maddox - Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:13 am
tepples,
You will have to pardon me for being so dense. I thought that you might have a clue how this industry works and I also thought you might remember that this is a GBA forum (that stands for Gameboy Advance).
| Quote: |
| Homebreweries do make money, especially on computer platforms. It's called shareware. The reason shareware does not exist on the GBA, blah, and blah is because of the console makers' tight control over what software can be marketed for those systems. |
Your brain caught up with you in the second half of this paragraph. Shareware does not exist on GBA. Therefore, no body cares about homebrew games (posted in the context of a GBA forum). Gosh.
| Quote: |
| Then why did Sega bring out Puyo Pop on GBA without the Sonic license? (The GameCube version of Puyo Pop, called Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, has the Sonic license because it's on the same disc with a half dozen other emulated Sonic games.) And what about Mr. Driller 1 and 2? What about Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo and Spin Jam for PS1? What about the Bust-A-Move series, that's still going strong? |
Firstish, Sega is its own publisher. Secondy, Puyo Pop is basically a license to them as it had mild success on Dreamcast. Mr. Driller is a license. So is Super Puzzle Fighter. Spin Jam, published by Take Two, doesn't seem to be license based, but guess what! There are always exceptions! Bust-A-Move is a license, too! Oh no! Thank you for pointing out that most puzzle games are a license based.
Sure a license has to start somewhere (with an original). That's not the point.
| Quote: |
| Not always. I'll give you Dr. M, Yoshi, Yoshi's Cookie, Kirby's Avalanche, Wario's Woods, but there have been almost as many exceptions. What about Tetris for Game Boy and NES? No appearances of the Mario Bros. except in short cameos. What about Tetris 2 for Game Boy, NES, and Super NES, and Tetrisphere and The New Tetris for N64? No Mario at all. What about "Panel de Pon", the Japanese version of Tetris Attack for Super NES? No Yoshi, no Pokemon. |
Tetris was done back in the day, when license-based publishing just wasn't as like it is today. No, no, the dynamics of publishing were different then. (Right, guys?) However! Tertris became a license! Tetris 2 just proves it. Tetrisphere proves it. The New Tetris proves it. Tetris Attack proves it. Root word: TETRIS. This couldn't have been more easy for you.
| Quote: |
| And yes, Yoshi's Cookie can be done without Yoshi; it's called "Russian Square" from the Windows XP Plus! pack. |
Did Nintendo publish it? No. And it has nothing to do with GBA so you lose twice! Twice in one tiny paragraph. Ouch.
Thanks so much for that post; I had a blast with it.
Next...
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#2364 - tepples - Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:37 pm
| Maddox wrote: |
| Therefore, no body cares about homebrew games (posted in the context of a GBA forum). |
Not even the publisher of Snood, which started out as shareware and is in effect a homebrew GBA title that made it? Or will you call Snood an "exception that proves the rule"? If you mean that no Nintendo licensees care about homebrew games, I have read about a couple companies that will manufacture GBA games in small lots without authorization from Nintendo. (This is lawful in the USA since Sega v. Accolade.) Unfortunately, I cannot provide a link to the web site of such a manufacturer at this moment; does lack of such a link completely invalidate my argument?
| Quote: |
| Sure a license has to start somewhere (with an original). That's not the point. |
It was entirely my point. Snood was not licensed by Taito, the owner of the Bubble Bobble and Puzzle Bobble/Bust-A-Move licenses.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | What about Tetris for Game Boy and NES? No appearances of the Mario Bros. except in short cameos. |
However! Tertris became a license! Tetris 2 just proves it. Tetrisphere proves it. The New Tetris proves it. |
I understand a lot about the Tetris franchise, but the part I responded to here was not about licenses in general nor the Tetris franchise but specifically about Nintendo puzzle games having Nintendo characters shoved up the rear end with the Super Mario license, the Kirby license, etc.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | What about "Panel de Pon", the Japanese version of Tetris Attack for Super NES? No Yoshi, no Pokemon. |
Tetris Attack proves it. Root word: TETRIS. |
It was called "Panel de Pon" in Japan, no Yoshi, no Pokemon, no Tetris brand, no franchise at all. Ever wondered where "Lip's Stick" from SSB Melee came from? Lip was a character in Panel de Pon. Panel de Pon became a minor license only after it was published. Or is this another "exception that proves the rule"?
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | And yes, Yoshi's Cookie can be done without Yoshi; it's called "Russian Square" from the Windows XP Plus! pack. |
Did Nintendo publish it? No. |
But it was a puzzle game, and it was published without any sort of license. I should have clarified that after the paragraph break, I was no longer talking about games that Nintendo published. And besides, how do you know that Microsoft isn't going to release another "Windows Entertainment Pack" for a Game Boy platform?
I'm starting to feel that since you joined the board, I have to be five times more careful how I phrase things. I'm not ready to use the T word yet, but your style creates an atmosphere that's not entirely friendly.
And let's please get back to topic.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
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-- I think he moved to Tilwick.
#2370 - JonH - Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:55 pm
| tepples wrote: |
| I have read about a couple companies that will manufacture GBA games in small lots without authorization from Nintendo. (This is lawful in the USA since Sega v. Accolade.) Unfortunately, I cannot provide a link to the web site of such a manufacturer at this moment; does lack of such a link completely invalidate my argument? |
sorry to remain off topic, but perhaps you were referring to http://www.freelancer-games.com
i don't see why it can't happen, theres nothing illegal about it.
#2378 - Maddox - Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:27 pm
| Quote: |
| I'm starting to feel that since you joined the board, I have to be five times more careful how I phrase things. I'm not ready to use the T word yet, but your style creates an atmosphere that's not entirely friendly. |
Sweet! tepples, honey, you WERE the one who picked apart MY post FIRST! Imagine that! YOU scrutinize ME and then start crying when I hammer you. Maybe *I* need to be five times more careful about what *I* post.
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#2399 - tepples - Mon Feb 03, 2003 1:38 am
| Maddox wrote: |
| you WERE the one who picked apart MY post FIRST! |
I admit my mistake of hypocrisy, and I'll back off.
That said, has anybody written a tool to convert high-color non-hand-drawn bitmaps to GBA tile data that uses multiple 15-color palettes?
Advantages of such a tool, if it existed, would include 1. reduced VRAM use and 2. the possibility that reduced bitrate before compression (32 bytes/tile vs. 64 bytes/tile) may result in reduced bitrate after compression.
I'm willing to write one myself, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel except when necessary.
_________________
-- Where is he?
-- Who?
-- You know, the human.
-- I think he moved to Tilwick.